ALERT!!! OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

I want to ask you people to do something that I consider VERY VERY important....I want you to invest just one hour and 21 minutes of your time and watch a video...its FREE!...all it costs is your time....After I watched this video my life was changed FOREVER!!...This is NOT a sales pitch....just please watch the video then e-mail me or post your opinions here Thank you Go to www.video.google.com...in the search bar type in... "911 coverup"...watch the very first video...the one that lasts one hour 21 minutes...be ready to be totally shocked!!!....TAz

Taz...please....

Taz, please what?

i wish i had the gizmos on my computer so i can watch this, because i think i know what it is -- and it never ceases to floor me. seriously, if you're computer isn't an ancient box of plastic you should watch this. skeptical or not, you should still see where your peers etc are coming from. and try thinking a bit.

I have to echo Gabe here, Taz Please what? Take out the garbage? Tie your shoes? Eat your porridge? I watched this not too long ago, and I agree Taz. Even if you dont think the gvt is behind this, it does give some very good information.

Oh, heh, sorry. Please post a quicklink to make it easier and give my thoughts... Taz cant do post a link, but here it is. 911 coverup video. Havn't had an extra spare minute to watch it but will be doing so asap. My thoughts going into this are that the neo-con nut jobs who wanted to invade Iraq and pump billions into the military industrial complex we're intentionally lax about letting an attack happen (either that or they are very very inept) to justify their plans. Follow the money... They tell us our economy is stronger now, but follow the money. Its real good for some people and piss poor for everyone else. Who's getting rich, how, and why? Being a peasant*, I never trust(or trusted) the ruling class. I have an inherent distrust in people who make rules because people with power like to take more... Of course there are exceptions, indeed there are many powerful people trying to make the world a better place. I dont think the good guys are winning, though its an amazing battle to watch... We will see what I think afterwards! * I am not complaining about my station in life, indeed I've lived like a king compared to many and Im very thankful to be born where I was.

man i just watched the whole thing and WOW i always new our gov. were all bastards but fuck. that makes me want to move to nother copuntry

TAz please????...I do hear that a lot ...usually followed by ..."DON'T STOP!!!"....or..."Stop fighting or we'll use the Taser!"...or..Untie me I'll be good!" ...or..." really! I'll pay you tomorrow when the bank opens!".......ad infinitum.

TAz, This can't possibly be the first time these possibilities have entered your mind, can it? Please say it isn't so................ But, like Gabe said, we've all mostly lived like Kings on a global scale. TCE

"that makes me want to move to nother copuntry" Actually, if you stay away from major landmarks or symbols this is more of a reason to stay put than to leave...unless of course your sense of moral outrage is stronger than your sense of survival...with me it's pretty much a toss up...I'm a jaded pragmatist....Canada/US... diferent flavours... basically the same icecream cone...

Tim...no of course its not the first time...this vid just went farther than anything else I have ever seenand I guess maybe because it was so graphic combined with the rest of that series and related info I have scrambled together the whole thing just scares the crap out of me man!...T

Heh...well I'm about speechless. That seemingly changes everything...

Jeremy, The only thing that's changed is your perception of the situation.................everything else is still the same.. TAz, I have another document for you to look at that may really help you to understand what this is all about. You may or may not have already seen it. I'll email it to you. TCE

Yes please Tim send it asap!...T

Yeah, that's sort of what I meant. While it doesn't physically change anything, it just puts a thought process through each individual. Whether I believe it or not is one thing...but one thing that it does do for sure, is that it makes you think. Now I usually hate to play the "what if" game, but yeah, "what if" this were true? Again, not that it's going to change anything /now/, but it does put a twist on what we're doing overseas.

I suppose this may be of interest to others as well, so I'll just pass it along here. Keep in mind this document was published one year before 9/11, but page 51 may shed some light on why this was "allowed" to happen. Make sure you look at the page # on the document, and not on the counter, as it tends to be off. http://NewAmericanCentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf TCE

ah, so this is one of the documents they used in the video!

I haven't had access to the video, so I don't know if reference was made to this or not, but nothing would shock me.............. TCE

Actually, the page number you mentioned had the exact lines they showed in the video. "Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

Well, there you go... TCE

Yes they are lines quoted in the video and yes I have seen this before...there are quite a few excerpts from this document on Prison planet.com....but thanks Tim!!!...T

"A great nation is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within"....Will Durant

Oh Buddy, I absolutely believe that our collapse shall be from within! TCE

I've always wnated to read the project for the new american century. Thanks for the link. if it's not obvious that there is some sort of corporate or govmnt conspiracy, at least on a small scale begining in the lead up to Iraq then I've been reading and listening to alot of very confused very educated people. There have been too many odd things revolving around this war on terror bs. Everything our govmnt comes up with is always poisoned with a way to make money for the top. Just last night they passed a minimum wage increase that was the main focus for a bill but which forced those who wanted the increase to shell 800 billion in tax revenue back to the top 1% of the country via the removal of the death/estate tax being lifted in the top group. Always a catch! Always...

this is all great and stuff so long as you realize that his thesis is as likely true as is the government's explanation of the events.

Well see thats the thing about this video ...no one tries to shove any conclusion down your throat...it simply gives you facts and encourages you to do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

I agree taz. That's what makes it so interesting. I usually speak unintelligently when it comes to politics and things like this because I'm never sure how I feel, and I hardly know or understand all the facts. In this circumstance, I've seen enough to hold each thesis in equal balance, and therefore, I probably will never choose a side, unless undeniable evidence is put forth. I would have tossed out the possibility a long time ago...had it not been for the governments constant insistance on withholding information, and it's history of lying to the people...I mean, what the fuck. I love my country to the core, I love everything that we used to stand for, that my forefathers blead and died for. I will defend it if necessary...but right now, I can't even tell who the enemy is. Anyways, those are my opinions, and I'm throwing things out there to see what ya'll think...tis one good thing about being young, and slightly ignorant. If you pay attention, you'll learn so much.

So why does everyone get so pissed when I say it's all about the oil? (ok, so it's about power too).

"this is all great and stuff so long as you realize that his thesis is as likely true as is the government's explanation of the events." This administration has told lie after lie after lie after lie. Indeed, the amount of government sanctioned propaganda that was passed on as news by the media is appalling. Not for nothing, but I dont think much this administrations says is "likely true".

For those interested in this topic, C-SPAN Sunday 7/30/06 2:15 P.M. EDT- September 11th Terrorist Attacks- Scholars for 9/11 Truth.

What we all need to do is get involved at the local level,start pushing that pile of shit back up hill.If you're really tired of having it broke off in your ass,pull it out and hand it back.They've been doing it to us for so long that they probably we like it or to dumb to notice. We need government for the people-from the people.Speaking for myself,I'm blue collar middle class-one of the majority.We are the tax base of this country.If you do nothing else get out and vote,show them that we care.

Hotspark, That's of some comfort when you believe that voting machine itself isn't broken...................................51%........another four years to "Stay the course"? Hmmmmm..........Bullshit!!!!!! TCE

Taz, I just watched this video. It's pretty incriminating. In fact, it's really pretty difficult to dismiss... on a lot of different levels. Some of it may be a little thin, but much, much, much of it is pretty much common sense. AT THE VERY, VERY LEAST the gist of this movie is that what happened on 911 is nowhere near as cut and dry as we'd like to believe. Know what sucks the worst though??? I don't think anyone cares. This would open up a lot of questions about our beloved George Bush and his administration, as well as demonization, what American is really doing in the world, etc. Americans don't want to know. It's easy to demonize someone else. Am I saying that there is no Islamic connection? No. Am I saying it was all ENTIRELY fabricated? No. But whatever the grey area is which is where the truth lies is something that Americans will not want to look at. If it doesn't affect their morning trip to 7-11 for coffee before work, nobody is gonna do anything. And believe me, though I have NO love for radical islam, and am not going to let anyone in that camp off the hook for anything, If it means that America will have to take a look at itself, it ain't ever gonna happen. Thousands of dead Americans. Sacrificed. No matter how you look at it. And nobody gives a shit. Well, Gotta go... i'd love to discuss this but I'm late. I'm meeting my friend over at Starbucks for a Latte.... I'm gonna take my second car... it's a little smaller, cause has anyone noticed how much gas costs these days?? Make mine a Venti...

Al, As long as people don't cut back on their driving, or flying, or whatever, there's no reason for gas prices to drop. Not long ago, $2.00 a gallon was an outrage.......................but how happy would people be to pay that now? See how that works? As long as people are willing to pay it and not cut back, then there's no good reason for the powers that be to drop the price; their showing record profits!! As long as there are good men and women who believe in the cause, and are willing to throw away their lives, then there's no reason to reassess the situation in the middle east. It serves a larger purpose for the higher ups, and whether you realize it or not, it's paying for itself through the price you and I pay for gas. TCE

Daddy Rose, personally I think you're right, most people DON'T care or have 'time to worry about it' and I'd suspect, THAT mentality is at least part of 'why' this shit went down in the first place, 'they' were counting on the sad fact that most people are too involved in their own needs/life that they don't really care for anything beyond that. Least of all if that should involve thinking on their own or having the guts to question their 'leaders'. I know I've done abunch of research re:911 conspiracy and the more you look/think, the clearer it is that we've been lied to big time and the people behind this have put this country in a very serious predicument but, the people who are behind this are making big profits and are resting comfortably knowing they will probably never have to pay for what they did and are continuing to do. Hell, even if/when they do get caught, the punishment they get is minimal and served at a country club 'prison' and it's not like we'll ever have any 'hard evidence', they conviently 'lost' and/or destroyed all that, THEY aren't stupid. ..Doc

And TCE, of course the oil profits are a 'part of it' if not the biggest part, but do you think a president from Texas is going to DO anything about THAT, who do you think got his dumb ass elected in the first place. Some if not all of the oil companies are making record profits, obscene profits, but the people just mumble and continue to pay it, afterall, they have to have gas to get to work, need that check to pay their bills, so they don't loose their car, house, etc., so the gas prices will just continue to get worse- who's gonna stop 'em?...Doc

No Doc, I don't think he's going to do anything about it, that's why it's our responsibility to do something about it. I understand that people have to go to work and all.....................but when I was working a regular job, I was riding my bicycle the 15 mile commute each way, just to fuck back! I realize that's not a viable option for everyone, but all the extra leisure trips are not necessary, and if the current price of gas is not enough of a deterrent to cut back, then it's only going to continue to climb until people finally aren't consuming as much. Then it will probably come down a little, but by then, the damage will have already been done, as if it hasn't already. TCE

Maybe George is just making up for all those years that he would be put in charge of an American oil company, damn near run it into the ground, sell it for cheap to Arab investors. Who, miraculously, create a 180-degree swing and revive the company in a very short period of time.... When it comes down to it, it is really hard to tell who the fuck is telling the truth these days. And the horrifying fact is that it's the honest men and women of this country that are playing the whipping boy.

Again, I think it gets back to the sad fact most Americans are too involved in their own problems, needs, wants to really pay too much attention, let alone DO anything to stop it. Look at how popular the gas guzzling SUV's and Hummers have become, for example. You can bet the powers that be calculated all that and knew they could pull it off ahead of time. The high gas prices have already started to effect other areas of the economy but not 'too' significantly yet or to too many and what most folks don't seem to grasp is the fact that the turds at the very top don't CARE how it effects the 'common man' as they're only 'pawns' to those arrogant, selfserving shits anyways...Doc

Oh, it'd be one thing if people were making a fucking effort to cut back on gas. Unfortunately those giant 5mpg Hummers are a status symbol, along with every other SUV. It's one thing to have a big family, but most of the time that doesn't seem to be the case. I know around here I often see those trucks with the huge ass mud tires...yeah, definitely gas efficient ;).

Al I think I gotta disagree with ya old pal...I think this nation still has the blood of our forefathers running through its veins...We as a whole seem to do our best to be nonconfrontational...at least radically confrontational...but when the steam builds up, and man the fire is already wayy hot!!...then a lot of people are gonna be very surprised at what America is REALLY made of when the outrage EXPLODES!!!!...And its gonna happen...it is inevitable buddy. Since I watched this video and have begun actually speaking with people and making contacts with grass roots organizations that I didn't eve know existed I have found that the backbone is still there ...it just required the chiropractor of outrage to pop it back in place...there are a LOT of people out there who are PISSED!!...not just from this video...about a lot of stuff..if ya get a chance talk to ol Rob G that makes my machines....he is a perfect example of grass roots people that WILL change things...and he isn't the only one either. Now don't get the wrong idea Al...I'm not advocating a full scall armed coup...not at all but if enough people get pissed off enough we can change this situation. I implore evryone to watch the video then do your own research then tell your friends and family..don't say"hey watch this video"...NO! say,"look ...watch this video then do your own research and come to your OWN conclusions.Take NO ONES word for anything...QUESTION EVERYTHING and make up your own mind!" This is our lives..our countries future...don't you think its worth just a couple of hours of your time?...I do!!!...TAz, Painted Angel

*fumbles around for a button* Oh yeah...there is no reset button on this thing O.o

*fumbles around for a button* Oh yeah...there is no reset button on this thing O.o

Get up-stand up.Are you tired of being pushed around yet?By the people We elected.

Okay Tazzle, ya busted me. I'm being a little facetious. But I do sincerely believe that this level of comfort to which we've become so accustomed will hold the people in check as long as possible. Look at the current administration!! This fucker's done things in the name of "National Security" that would have had any other president impeached. But everybody looks the other way and allows him to do what he pleases regardless of the cost to our freedoms or status in the world communitiy, and things go on. Didn't interrupt my late, still got to pick up my son at soccer practice, sure gas hurts a little right now, but only enough to make me bellyache about it a little. Not enough yet to do anything about it. I sincerely HOPE that Taz is right. To the bottom of my soul, I hope Taz is right because I want to have a great country to leave to my girls. My FEAR is that it's going to take a catastrophe that makes 911 look like a baby shower before people will rise up and question this stuff. I think when 30,000 Americans die and gas is $6 a gallon, then people will wake up. Man, oh man, oh man, do I hope I'm wrong. By the way, what was this whole Iraq thing about? By the way, anybody been watching North Korea? Show of hands. Right now, how many people are willing to authorize a total, surgical, decisive strike against NK that will obliterate their Nuclear capability completelly the next time the shoot a missle at Hawaii? Good thing I'm not President!

By the way, you back TCE??? That would be cool!

Correct me if I'm wrong...but wasn't NK claiming not too long ago that they were just working on nuclear POWER supply? Funny they'd be launching missiles...

Ok about gas prices...in all reality AGAIN...we have absolutely NO right to bitch...do your homework...if you did you would realize that we pay less for fuel than 89% of any other countries in the world ? ( not including the Arab states) ....yep...England...$6.80 per gal...Japan...$9.16 a gallon...Bellorussia?...$13 a fuckin GALLON..(.I could go on and on) the gas prices in "free" Europe are on average 118% higher than here in North America!!!!!!!...We have NO right to bitch at all!!...But you are right!...We should cut down our fuel consumption....and a lot of other things...and of course you all know about the 100 mpg car that was developed in the 70s right?...yep and never put on the market ...the whole thing covered up for years by who?...well think about it ...who had the most to gain by keeping an almost totally fuel efficient car off the market? And the most to gain by marketing gas guzzlers to the sheeple as Gabe calls them ( an apt term for sure!)...I drive a car that gets on average 10 miles per gallon but I conserve in any way I can ...I drive my hearse only when absolutely necessary usually driving a more efficient car or riding with others We just need to use a little common sense and instead of bitching and moaning get off our pampered American asses and DO SOMETHING POSITIVE!!!...Write your congressmen...not once...but every fuggin week!! Send e-mails to any government official you can...form petitions and get em signed and send them in to officials and news media....this shit ain't gonna change itself! IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!! Get off your lazy asses,quit having those pity parties, quit blaming everyone but yourself ...and DO SOMETHING!!! Get your friends involved...talk to your kids and relatives...especially those children who think they live in a Utopian world where all is well...well IT AIN"T...let em know that we have problems...BIG problems and we must all band together and fix them...where would we be if our brave forefathers had just sat at home and done nothing?...We'd still be part of England!!! Start thinking for yourselves...start acting for yourselves...lets fix these problems and leave our children a government they can once again be proud of!! FREEDOM: IT AIN'T FREE!!! Ok OK ...off the soapbox...just please do us all a favor and think about it tonight...turn off that mindsucking television, sit down with your family and friends and TALK!!!.....TAz

I watched with an open mind and some of my thoughts are --Who made the movie (paid for it, did the research...)? --Why hasn't this gotten greater exposure? --It has been 5 years if it was a US conspiracy how many people would have had to be involved? Were the majority killed? It seems an action of that magnitude would require such a large number of people one of them would/will eventually talk. --Remember it is the internet anyone can put anything up on the internet while there is a large amount of good info available there is 100 times more shit. --Don't beleive anything you see/hear/read to be absolute truth from the gov't or its opposition I am not saying I believe or dismiss this video. I am not saying I believe the story told to us by the gov't. I do believe all people spin "facts" and events to meet their needs and leave out "facts" and events that do not serve their purpose.

For those who think this is all just another nutjob conspiracy theory... Fact one...there is not one fact to prove that a boeing 757 airliner crashed into the Pentagon...no recognizable parts of an airplane of ANY sort were found there...their story...that the plane "vaporized" upon contact...if that were true then how did the forensics team identify the bodies?...do you really believe that human flesh and bone would withstand the collision when not one fragment of the so called "airliner"survived?...And how does an object with a wingspan of over 175 feet and a tail fin about 47 feet tall fit through a hole approximately SIXTEEN FEET IN DIAMETER leaving no evidence of the imact on either side of that 16 foot hole??Think about it! Fact two...where are the remains of flight 93 that supposedly crashed into the ground?...And again how could the bodies have been forensically identified when titanium ( one of the hardest metals in the WORLD) airplane parts supposedly vaporized? Again ...just THINK about it!! I could go on and on but I won't...if you are a thinking person you can do your own homework...I am not here to convince you either way...just wanted to offer a couple of things to get your brain boiling ...start the thought process...if you do your homework and just spend a couple of hours searching you will be just as chilled in the soul as I am...THINK ABOUT IT!!!!....TAz

Hey Taz...if you want to start something, say a petition or whatever, I'd be happy to sign or contribute what I can...just a thought.

TAz, Also consider that flight 93 was the only flight that was confirmed via cell phone calls from within the plane that it actually had been hijacked, and was not merely off course.........................from how far away can a fighter jet shoot down a commercial airliner? So far that it would not be seen anywhere in the vicinity. I told you what my buddy saw on the runway at JFK in the early morning hours of 9/11 before the shit hit the fan................none of that was ever mentioned. The Pentagon stuff, well, that speaks for itself. Al, I guess I'm back thanks to an embroiled topic......... TCE

Lets also not forget the black boxes from the planes...

true or not (this video was posted awhile back wasn't it?) i'm sure you're all aware about the magic behind film editing, right?

p.s. welcome back TCE and TAz.

Mamacat, naturally most of us are aware of film editing and the magic they can do with it but there are too many details that all the film editing in the world can't change. Film editing did not make the plane, debris and bodies 'disappear' from the plane crashes at the pentagon and the plane the passangers supposedly took over (and made cell phone calls from an altitude that was impossible for phones to reach) No, this isn't some malcontents trying to stir up shit as you will realize if you watch the vids, do a little research on your own and think for yourself, this is some very serious shit...Doc

Some people have the mistaken idea that this video was the brainchild of just one person...NO!...it was pieced together from many different sources by 5 actual groups of concerned citizens...as for the cell phone calls...not a chance....they just don't work up that far!...Ever been in a plane?...Ever see a cell tower at 37,000 feet?...I think not!.some of the lies were just so blatantly ridiculous I wonder why they weren't seen through immediately....like the recording of the guy calling his mom and he says.."Mom...this is...frank whatever" using both his first and last name...now when have you ever called your mom and had to tell her both your names?...Ludicrous! As far as the photo editing...none of these vids were taken by the people involved in making this video...they are all available from other sources and you can download them, play them side by side and compare for yourself and you will see that no digital manipulation has been done. Flight 93 that supposedly crashed due to the heroic efforts of the passengers did not crash and is actually still listed as "in service"any efforts to question the airline meets with stonewalling and outright lies...have you seen pics of the crash site?...and compared it to the crash sites of real crashes?...not even close....and then there is the statement from the coroner of the county where flight 93 was supposed to have crashed..."After a while we just stopped looking for bodies....we found not even a drop of blood...NOT ONE DROP!!"...And yet the official report lists forensic evidence to identify the remains...how so when not even one drop of blood was found...Come to your own conclusions!... You realize that this just ONE of the videos right?...There are 3 more in the series...and if ya think these people are trying to make money from this video think again...they are even spending their OWN money to make copies of the videos and giving them away for FREE!!!!!!...Come to your own conclusions!... There seems to be a segment of our own government that thinks we are STUPID...and maybe we have been....maybe its time to get smart ...or at least open our eyes!!!.....TAz

I'll go a little further. I think anyone who believes this is fucking laughable. Is it true? Maybe. Is what Bush says true? Maybe. You are all being as blind as sheep if you believe what is said to you in a video. This young man could be lying as much, if not possibly more than the Bush administration's account of events. Just because someone shoots off a couple of references and shows you a video doesn't mean it is proof. As far as I am concerned this video is just government propaganda to prevent conspiracy theorists from truly theorizing what occured. You are letting your feelings toward the administration cloud your intellectual reasoning, and ability to criticize. I encourage you all to critically analyze the faults of this video, just as much as you would the sayings of George Bush.

Mamacat...thanks!!!...I just neede a break...Hows my Miacat?

taz said: There seems to be a segment of our own government that thinks we are STUPID...and maybe we have been....maybe its time to get smart ...or at least open our eyes!!!.....TAz I say: No we're not stupid we're fucking lazy. Go out and get a FID card and prepare for the war. This country is so apathetic that the government realizes that there will never be a grassroots retaliation for the orchestrated tragedies that were september the 11th. Just think about it, someone provides evidence that the government executed 3000+ people in order to start a war and make a couple billion, and everyone just goes "agh i'm so mad" ON A FUCKING MESSAGEBOARD!

Yes, yes, that's it! We're blind as sheep......................WE'RE as blind as sheep!!! Hey, ya know, as long as my portfolio looks good, who really gives a fuck what happens to anyone else? Know what I'm saying!?! TCE

...................and at least the guy's not getting a BJ in the Oval Office..................of course that's only because he can't multitask!

Ah, Tce, you're back and in 'fine form' again, thanks for the much needed laugh (bj in oval office-multi-task) I ain't laughed much since I got into this fucked up subject and what I've 'learned', it's like there's a voice in the background of my mind screaming FUCK at the top of his voice. I needed that break, thanks (and welcome back buddy). And Edward Allen, as to what you said 'bout 'just think about it', ya, to some big degree, you're right, we're just bitchin on a forum but realize, everything starts somewhere and if enough people get to seeing this shit for what it is, well, perhaps then change will happen. Besides, what do you propose we do, make stupid threats or anything else the powers of the Patriot Act could have suits pounding on your door over. Be very cafefully what you say on the 'net, big brother can and possibly IS listening- and remember, they enacted the 'Patriot Act' very quickly and passed it off to us as for OUR protection, giving them carte blanc access to phone calls, email, forums, any thing they want to monitor, keep that in mind folks, this ain't fucking paranoid shit it's reality in the new age...Doc

Doc John, Exactly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,blowing off steam on the net is how normal people cope...........................the lunatics stay silent, or give props to those they despise. TCE

Edward. We'd be just as blind as to NOT question the crap that our government and the media tries to feed us these days. Could the video be right? Maybe...but there is no maybe that we've obviously been lied to in some way. The evidence is right there, Taz just pointed it out. Sure, there are many of us who are angry and won't do anything about it until it gets to be unbearable...I'm probably one of them. But I don't think coming on the forum critisizing people for it surely doesn't help. If you want my opinion (I'll give it to you whether you want it or not) I think taz /has/ done something. He's getting us to see this video, which I hope spreads to even more people like aids. There are undeniable facts in the video...unless you wanna be a blind sheep too and not see them. So no...We are doing /something/. We're getting people to watch the video, which in turn, is merely getting people to think. An activity in which Americans haven't been doing for far too long.

Hi mamacat.............../~^/~^/~^/~^/~^/~^/~^/ And that's all I have to say about that. TCE

Doc stated the exact reason that I can't say what I want about some of these subjects. Damned big brother shit....

Edward Allen ...I find your last post almost as disturbing as watching that video for the first time....Listen pal I AM doing something about it...since the very hour that I frist saw the video I have spent countless hours telling people I know...people I don't know...making flyers ( about 400 bucks worth) and payin some people I know who needed some extra bucks to pass em out in 4 different towns... Out of my own pocket I am getting a website devoted to this subject on line very soon...I know you don't know me because if you did you wouldn't even think to characterize me in the same basket as those who just give lip service on the net then watch television and go to bed bitching and moaning about the sorry state of the Union...no...I put my money where my mouth is...I don't just talk the talk ...I walk the walk my friend....maybe you missed some of my posts...particularly the one that said"if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem" I am not a rabid anti government rabble rouser but I am BY GOD gonna do everything in my power to do justice to everything I have said....Ya see I am NOT one of those people you are talking about and I don't think I am alone...but even if I were my philosophy is thus..."if not me ...who?...If not now...when? Don't think for one fuckin minute that I am not for real pal... The buck stops here....and I ain't scared!!!...I'm MAD!!!GET IT???...T

Congratulations on doing something. I am not questioning your motives taz. I am questioning what would make you believe this story over anything else reported through mainstream media? Is it simply because it fits your desired belief system? I still view that movie as mere unsubstantiated propaganda. If the author wanted me to believe his theories he would have provided thorough documentation of articles and references for tesitmonies. Even then, I would still question whether or not he was outright lying or if his evidence was manufactured by either himself or of the government. I do not think that passing on information will bring about any change. The government has clearly shown that non-violent demonstrations no longer work, as those that are widely reported through other mediums are not reported through large scale media. See the 1000 arab and jew women's march, the worldwide protest of the iraq war, etc. It's like the old saying "If a tree falls and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Them damn Irakees just blew up ma corn field!!! Shit damn!! Ah just knew this wuz gonna happen!!!!

Mr Extra Large Illusion. You are completely misinterpreting my points. The issue is whether or not anything reported can be believed anymore. You are citing a d budget compilation of video clips with rough commentary to be the absolute truth. I merely want you to criticize the video for what it is, and determine why the author is omitting so much. That is all. It's actually hilarious to me that so many of you are offended that I question your liberal bias. Furthermore, there is no proof that his citations are indeed true; they themselves could be government orchestrated. And let me just say how hilarious it is to see you use extreme right wing influenced language. Spread like aids eh? Watch a little too much Fox News coverage of Africa is it? Your terminology is not only highly offensive and degrading to many peoples and races, it is dripping with right wing propaganda.

A right wing liberal........................now there's something ya don't see every day!

Edward...if you had bothered to watch the other 3 parts you would have seen the documentation....D grade?...well of course...this video is not a slick hollywood production and not trying to convince anyone of anything...simply puttin it all out for us to make of it what we will....all the individual video clips are outsourced from mostly the " mainstream" media and again if you had watched video three you would see where the bias could posibly have entered into the game....I don't pretend to have the answers ...I don't know exactly what happened and don't profess to have even come to a logical conclusion about the horrendous events that happened that day...neither does the narrator in the videos.....and once again that information is there...raw information for us to consider as we wish...the video makes no presumptive judgements but instead leaves that up to us, the viewer....I don't believe that any of "us" will ever know all the answers however if any even marginally intelligent human with the ability for free thought pursued his/her own systematic ,pragmatic search for information from the most objective sources ( and there are oodles of them there for the picking) not just internet info either...then I cannot envision how that person could come to any conclusion but that there is something very wrong about the information the American public was given about 911. The only true conclusion to which I have personally arrived is that the events of that day as portrayed by the "mainstream media" and our government, cannot be true. There are elements that are so ludicrous as to be laughable...many many elements...furthermore that personal conclusion was arrived at not just by watching a single "D" grade video but through nearly a weeks worth of independent research through varied and sundry sources. Ok so peaceful demonstrations are pitiful at best...so do you advocate just smiling and saying,"Ok well I can't do anything about it so I guess I'll just shut up ignore the evidence thats right in front of my face?....Maybe you my friend....but not me...and not a whole lot of other people either. This is a great country we have here and I am compelled to do what little I can to maintain its greatness...however I refuse to be lumped in the same basket with the "sheeple"...those pitiful mindless followers that shake their heads in exasperation ,eat a slice of apple pie and go to bed and sleep the sleep of the innocent....thats not for me...if that is you, well thats fine...you have every right to say and do what you will..I respect your opinion and though I could never agree with you I would fight to the death to ensure that your rights to said opinion and actions or lack thereof are YOUR decision...all I ask is that you afford me that same respect...T

theval, I trust you KNOW you best not say much on this one, but I doubt any of the regulars won't understand that. Careful,girl, CYA. Edward Allen, while I can somewhat relate to some of what you state, you aren't giving much credibility to the issues and how at least common sense would make you know something about the whole 'story' could not have possibly happened the way we were told. What the fuck, are you looking for proof beyond what's already known about some of the issues before YOU accept that something is definitely wrong with what they SAY happened and what DID actually happen. Are you in denial or what? Just because we're on a Tattoo Forum discussion board do not assume we're all simply minded, uninformed, gullible- or all talk, either. You don't know us. As to the 'right wing propaganda' shit, what the fuck are you talking about? If you find an honest, patriotic and informed man's opinion to be 'not only highly offensive and degrading to many peoples and races, it is dripping with right wing propaganda.' perhaps I should clue you in on something, pal, many of us here don't give a flying fuck about 'political correctness', we're more about telling it like it is and if ya can't handle that perhaps you should find another board to talk your brand of shit on, course that's just my opinion...Doc

Yeah Doc ol pal I think some people have the very erroneous idea that since we are tattoo artists we must be only marginally intelligent and shouldn't be offering our opinons on something as important as this subject....therein lies the smell...stereotyping can be a big big mistake even though oft made....to those with that particular frame of mind I say," I am your worst enemy...an educated lowlife"....TAz

Doc, Of course I know. That's why I haven't said shit. Conspiracy theories aside, I still remember exactly how I felt when I saw the planes hit the WTC. I was in Saudi Arabia, and watched it unfold as it happened on CNN. It was most fucked up. A little off the subject, but all I can contribute.

We appreciate your situation Val and love you anyway! Damned goverment lackey!...LOL!! just ribbin ya baybee!!!

Just call me GI Don'tgiveashit. I can handle good natured ribbing!

TAz, You mean as opposed to an educated 'no life'?......hee hee!! TCE

Taz, I kinda get that feeling myself, brother, and I'm sure it ain't the first time-or last. Guess it's hard for some folks to comprehend that some Tattoo Artist (and collectors) do actually have functional brains that actually work and we are capable of rational thinking from time to time, and this is most assuritively one of those times. Theval, I too, all too fucking well remember how I felt THAT day, I saw it almost from the very beginning, live on CNN and couldn't really believe what I was watching was really happening here, on our soil. Now, watching those conspiracy vids and doing some follow up research, not only am I having to relive THAT day and those emotions, what I've learned is fucking me up as much, if not more. Yes, hon, it is indeed 'most fucked up'...Doc

Taz, I kinda get that feeling myself, brother, and I'm sure it ain't the first time-or last. Guess it's hard for some folks to comprehend that some Tattoo Artist (and collectors) do actually have functional brains that actually work and we are capable of rational thinking from time to time, and this is most assuritively one of those times. Theval, I too, all too fucking well remember how I felt THAT day, I saw it almost from the very beginning, live on CNN and couldn't really believe what I was watching was really happening here, on our soil. Now, watching those conspiracy vids and doing some follow up research, not only am I having to relive THAT day and those emotions, what I've learned is fucking me up as much, if not more. Yes, hon, it is indeed 'most fucked up'...Doc

Honestly, I don't want to relieve that day. I don't want to see those fucking movies that are coming out about it now, which I think is a bad idea. It just doesn't feel right. I hate how everything that goes wrong in the country gets referenced to that day as though nothing in the US was ever fucked up before that happened. The country had problems long before that took place. It's not the end all be all cause of all the crap going on now. I hate the people that just put those stupid magnetic things on their cars because it's the 'in' thing to do. If they really feel strongly about it, then cool. But a lot just do it because others did.I hate how the WTC site has become a fucking TOURIST attraction, complete with people taking pictures and smiling. That really chaps my ass... Ok, I feel myself starting another one of those ranting tangents again... I will shut up now...

There are pretty damning issues (like the size of the hole in the pentagon & lack of debris from there and #93). Enough doubt to make it easy to want to trust the other 'facts' presented. Instead of just vaguely challenging the video on the grounds of propaganda or hollywood magic, I'll point out a few "facts" that raised a skeptical eyebrow with me... 1) the gold reserves in the basement as a motive... Maybe I didn't understand the "mechanics" of this...Wouldn't the various "owners" of this gold be coming forward to claim their assets? Would they just let it drop? Can you even insure gold against theft?...How does the whole gold motive thing work? Mind you, I think control of the world oil supply and world domination are motive enough to drop a couple of buildings in and of itself, but the video makers brought it up so I ask if this tidbit felt a bit nebulous... 2) the visual highlighting of the secondary "explosions" as the towers fell... everything else aside, if the building was collapsing in on itself (for whatever reason) one might expect that all of that internal falling debris might create some pressure in the floors below and blow out some windows and debris as a result. Just saying I can easily imagine those horizontal sideways "blowouts" being air and debris forced out during the collapse Like I said...there are enough obvious things to doubt the Gov'ts version, but these two issues rang 'weak' with me, and that just makes me wonder what other flaws (if they are indeed flaws) I wasn't astute enough to notice... anyone have clarification on these two points, or other examples of 'weak' or wrong "facts" that stood out with you? Another thing that crossed my mind was, 'they' went "hollywood" on flight #93, so It'll be extremely interesting to see if this is allowed to do the same 'a la' Manchurian Candidate, Divinci Code, (fill in your favorite conspiricy flick here) Michael Moore did his own little thing with Faranheit 911... Taz, truth or fiction aside, I trust in the wisdom of the saying 'follow the money.' This could be the 'smoking gun' behind why the video was produced. You say the guys who made it are not making a penny off of this Video. True enough, for now...Once made, distributing it through google and on the internet is down right cheap. Whether people go because they believe it, or go because they don't, the video would make a gripping blockbuster movie and I guarantee would make a killing on the big screen...I can't characterize their motives as above suspicion by a long shot...

Ummm, that's supposed to be 'caribou', not 'aribou'

I don't think that this video can be taken as the whole truth any more than anything else can. What it is, is just one more piece of evidence that what the current administration is telling us, and what actually happened don't add up. Surprising? Not really. Bigger point is that 9/11 is over and done. Since that day, one has to wonder about the like 6 years since, and how much of what has happened, and what is happening since were lies. This is where Taz and I disagree, (in a very friendly way, cause I love Taz, and much respect his opinion) but he mentioned that he thinks there is something left in this country to build on, that there is an underlying patriotism still there. I think as a whole, the American people want to be lied to. I don't think they are really interested in the truth, whatever that is. I think it's all about bucks. If you've got em', things look rosy. If your life isn't being directly affected, I don't think too many Americans will do much. Plus, I think the Bush admin. has done a wonderful job of controlling Americans through fear and misinfo. Throw in a little "If you disagree with us, you're UnAmerican", mix it up with a little American Troops = American Policy, and you've got the recipe for our pres to do whatever he wants. What's the real truth? I don't think there's any way to get at it anymore. But I'll tell you what... If you voted for him, let alone twice, then kick back and coast on the results... this is your world baby! You bought and paid for it! Don't wanna hear no complainin!

Daddyrose, unfortunately I agree with you...(not because it's you, but because of the the content!). I also think that the American people want to be lied to. Sure there are some people out there who are willing to uncover the lies and try to spread the word and do something about it, to create change. But I feel like the vast majority of Americans are perfectly happy living in their little bubble being told it's all terrorists fault. I don't even know who the fucking terrorists are anymore. The people who I thought were the good guys are doing awful things things and there are people who are being coined as terrorists just because of their dress or choice in religion. The government has turned American's against anyone wearing traditional Islamic garb...and people fall for it because it's easier than finding out the truth and doing something about it. Just a quick couple of examples...my Pakistani's friend 60 year old mother who has lived in this country for 27 years has a valid ssn, and passport, was kept in the airport for 7 hours, searched, and questioned because she "looked suspicious" in her traditional Islamic garb. My dumbass cousin was doing construction work for a friend of my family who happens to be from Iran, and said to my Dad "I don't trust them, i mean they could be terrorists". This is not uncommon, and I"m sure you know people to who are just as ignorant and bigoted...probably peope close to you. It disgusts me. Dana

Although I don't think that anything in this world can be taken at face value, the video seems to make much more sense than anything our government has put out about 9/11. When I said people want to be lied to, that people want to hide, I don't think I'm any different. It's sad, and disappointing. I've thought of all of those things before, thought they didn't add up, never trusted the current administration and KNOW they have lied repeatedly, yet I've not done much but write a few letters and talked with my peers about it. Maybe that's all I can do, write and talk...I don't know. What's even more upsetting than what happened on 9/11 and all the lies is how it is still continuing. We're being lied to about so much we can't even figure out what's the truth. Although I want more than anything for the people responsible for 9/11 to be impeached and actually held responsible, I have little faith it will ever happen. There are so many things that need to be fixed in this country, so many things that need to be fought for...how do you choose? Do you fight to find the truth for 9/11, do you fight to keep the rights of a woman's choice to her own body, do you fight to keep religious bigotry from deeming homosexual marriage as wrong, do you fight for the poor quality of education, do you fight for the destruction of our environment...and the list goes on and on. I am at a loss, it's so big. I'm not apathetic, I feel hopeless. I choose to stand up in the small ways that I can..I don't know how much good it will do, but I will try not to lie to myself or allow others to shift my perceptions so much that I start to believe the lies I'm fed. I will try, but I'm only human. To admit fault is to take the first step towards righting it. Dana

dear Dr. John. You are obviously too brainwashed to understand my comment. It is a reference to his blatant word choice. Educated liberals do not say such things. Why? Because they have been molded not to (call it brainwashing if you please). His speech is inherently racist and classist. It is akin to referring to poor countries as 3rd world when all the term truly means is to be non-classifiable as communist or anti-communist. As for your comment that I view tattooists and tattoo artists as sub-intelligent you must be kidding me. Do you think I just shot over here from a political message board because taz posted some liberal propaganda? and Taz, I did watch the entirety of your infomercial. And I will say it again, you are missing my point entirely. I am not calling you out on your views of think 9-11 was an inside job, or that the government had internal motives to execute it. The issue is the credibility of the reporting. You cannot be critical of one source, the administration, and uncritical of the next, your little video. In all likelihood he too can be manufacturing information. I would like to call to your attention this boards' treatment of my statements. You have outright attacked me as if I was on Fox News saying that 9-11 was a government conspiracy. It's quite interesting to note how far the branch falls from the tree in this instance isn't it? I pose a number of questions relating to alterior motives and I am instantly attacked and thought to be foolish, instead of listened to, and my points pondered. Obviously I do not advocate either of your solutions. I advocate revolution. The country needs to be uprooted and turned into a democracy. As it functions now it is a participatory republic at best. The government calls it a democracy in order to make its' blind inhabitants think that they exist in the best possible political situation. Think of the allegory of the matrix. If we do not know that anything else exists, could it exist? If you so wish to fight to the death to defend this murderous, incestuous war crime ridden nation, go ahead. But by defending this nation you are no better than the so called heroes in Iraq who are complacently murdering innocent civilians. Just because you think you are defending something just, does make your view correct. I will be leaving this nation when I am finished with my studies, and unfortunately all that I will be able to say later in life is yes, I did live in the most apathetic nation on the face of the planet, and yes, the american empire did deserve to fall as a result of their attrocities committed around the world and for their piggish consumption and destruction of natural resources. I am not insulting you or the other board members taz, I am asking you to question everything. That is it.

Edward...man I SINCERELY apologize if I came across as attacking you...that surely was not my intention at all....do you always think you are being attacked when someone doesn't disagree with you?...I really enjoyed reading your posts....I'm really sorry you have such an erroneous view of my opinions...you are way off base man ...I guess thats my fault for not explaining myself well enough...its obvious that I will never be able to explain my feelings to you so lets just agree to disagree..ok? You have a great life ...that is when you finish your education here in my country and then LEAVE!....that alone speaks volumes! See ya pal!...TAz

Taz, I am a citizen of this country and have lived here since I was 4, I may live here so long as I please. My leaving is merely my decision to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Edward...Man!...Don't be so combative...I wasn't attacking your decision to leave...thats YOUR biz not mine...Good Luck!!

Edward, Edward, Edward, I thought we were gonna be friends. In fact, I sincerely think that much of what you are saying is right on the ball. You are educated, intelligent and well spoken. However, with that last comment, you lost it all. You may be right. The U.S. may be heading for a fall. And, you may also be right that on a lot of levels, it deserves it for the very true reasons that you mentioned. Maybe the US is just the next Rome. Maybe it's our time. But this whole bit about you taking your education from this country and running off somewhere else because it's the lesser of 2 evils shows you for the hypocrite and opportunistic snob that you are. I'm not much of a love it or leave it guy. I'm more of a "love it, and because you love it, FIX IT. Kind of a guy. My grandfather, and the grandfathers of some many other people made sacrifices that you can't even begin to imagine unless you are a combat vet... are you? to give you the right to that coveted education that you'll trekking off to a new country with. For their sake, let me say this. An administration is not a country. This land is a country, and for all those old guys who fought to keep it free not too long ago, allow me to be the first to say "Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out". You are a fucking parasite. Whatever good your education would have produced, I'll take small comfort in knowing that whatever happens to this great land, (not to be confused with "Administration" or "Policy" it won't be because Edward stayed or left. In my opinion, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Why should we entertain anything seriously from some self-absorbed Little Lord Fauntleroy who's running away? Fuck you. I detest this administration with a hatred that knows few boundaries. I disagree with much of the U.S. current global policies. I also think Americans as a whole need to wake up and take a good long look at our consumptive, excessive lifestyles. I think, as you do, this country could use a good revolution. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement to that effect. But run away? Nope. My grandfather didn't earn his purple hearts to watch me run from anything, internal, or external. That will just have to be the legacy of people like you. Wherever you're going, have a nice trip buddy!!

Edward Allen, I hardly believe I am too brainwashed to understand your comments and I personally don't think it's so much the particular word choice that's truly important so much as the point of the message but obviously we disagree on that, as well as a number of things. I would have thought anyone with the power to reason for themselves would have grasp the fact that we were obviously lied to about what really happened that day, apparently you don't, so be it, I could care less, enough people ARE thinking and all your bullshit isn't going to change that. As to your decision to leave this country as soon as you finsh your education, as Taz said, I think that says a lot about you as a man. Besides, dumbass IF this shit is in fact what's going down, where the fuck do you think you can move to that won't be effected by this in the long run. To me you're an educated idiot, got lots of book smarts but dumb as a rock when it comes to 'common sense', that's something they cannot teach in any school, you either have it or you don't and I don't believe you do. You apparently have your mind made up and neither facts or anything else will sway that, so be it, I personally have nothing further to say to you...Doc

I found the video to be the culmination of information that's been available all along, although scattered about in different places............................it didn't seem to be any revelation of sorts. The facts have been there in front of our faces for 4 1/2 years for anyone who cared to look, I'm sort of taken aback that people are suddenly shocked by this one stop shopping reel. But TAz, if it moves you enough to make great strides in effecting change, shit man, then I think it's served an invaluable purpose! Edward, lots of assholes have come here and become citizens everyday, a couple of million are probably about to become citizens simply because they illegally jumped the border 10 years ago, big fucking deal!!! If we fall, you'd better pray you're long gone when it happens!! Like, off on another rock!!! In the meantime, what are you studying............................how to fly commercial jets? Good luck! TCE

"But by defending this nation you are no better than the so called heroes in Iraq who are complacently murdering innocent civilians." I have a serious fucking problem with that statement right there. Fuck you, Edward Allen. *( Doc: See, I told you assholes like that exist)*

I'm surprised at the way people are reacting to this Edward fellow. From all I can tell he's just saying not to take things at face value, and chooses to live his life differently than others on this forum. I also don't see anything wrong with choosing the lesser of two evils. It's still an escape, just a different kind. Everyone needs to escape, if we dealt with reality all the time we'd go insane. People escape from the truths behind the lies in this country (and all countries) all the time. I think it's kind of ridiculous to call this guy an asshole because he's choosing a different path. In my mind it's the same as calling someone out because they're not following the same religion as you. "Sorry man, you're not cool because you chose to get a good education and lead a life different than me." What the hell. He chose to speak up and instead of people listening to his opinion with an open mind, people decided he was an asshole and attacked his character, which by the way you can't tell a damn thing about online. Not cool. Go ahead and fire away at me too. Just like him I'll say what I think, you can make up your mind about who and what I'm about without actually knowing even a fraction of the truth about me. Feeding yourself with lies about who someone is, is just another escape. I DON'T agree with attacking someone because their views are different, and I didn't think people on this forum did either, I'm surprised. Dana

theval, I too believed he crossed over the line with THAT comment and yes, of course I do see that assholes like that exist, in number unfortunately but I don't have ANY respect for any piece of shit that spews that kind of crap as he's in this country enjoying the freedoms it allows and talking of bailing after he gets his education, quite possibly at the tax payers expense at that. I don't know where he originally came from, not sure I care but he might want to be careful where he makes comments like that or he may not be leaving intact....Doc

Dana, did you miss his comment' If you so wish to fight to the death to defend this murderous, incestuous war crime ridden nation, go ahead. But by defending this nation you are no better than the so called heroes in Iraq who are complacently murdering innocent civilians'? THAT, if none of the rest of what he said crosses a line that shouldn't have been crossed. I usually try to see things from the others point of view before I say anything but this guy just won't open his eyes/mind and due to the severity of the topic, I think he got what he deserves under the circumstances and in lieu of some of his statements. I don't have any problem with you but I do think you should read everything he said before you accuse us of simply picking on someone because their views are different as I don't believe it's quite that simple...Doc

No Edwards, I did not misinterprit your points. If you read any of my statements earlier you'd have noticed that I even said myself that I do not know if either one could be believed, and therefore would not draw any conclusions, minus the obvious. I said taz just proved that we were lied to about /some/ things in the least. Mostly referring to the cell phone usage on flight 94. Spread like aids? Yes, we call that a SIMILIE (sp?) I do not see where you got the fox news or the racial implications from. It is a fact that AIDS/HIV is spreading at an alarming rate, thus the similie, hoping that the viewing of this movie spreads to people at an alarming rate. Not to mention buddy, last I checked, anyone can get aids...so again, I'm not sure where the racial implications are being made. I do not believe you are being "attacked" without propper cause. You came on here and insinuated that the people who believe any of this movie are as blind as sheep. I merely replied that to not question (which I believe was one of your points, correct?) is blind in itself. Yeah, the bush administration has lied, countless times...and yes, the internet has many more lies. Nobody said, "believe this movie!" It was merely asked that you watch it, and draw your own conclusions. And by questioning what we saw, we are doing that. And just so you know...the XL in the name does not stand for "extra large"...So um...if you don't like being "attacked"...don't be a smartass.

I did read it and I don't agree with the comment you quoted. You're right he said more than just be open to all possibilites..he definitely crossed a line. I'm not denying that. The people of the American army are following orders and are fighting to protect the people of this country. No comment can take that away. I know that and I think most people who are talking about this topic will agree with that. I'm not going to call some guy an asshole and attack his character because he decides to attack the character of others. I would be no better than him than. I will disagree with the comments I disagree with and talk about it. I won't make conclusions about someone based on text. It's hard to be bigger than the people you disagree with and take the high road. Dana

I also just want to add that I don't expect others to follow the path that I've chosen in this topic or in others. I choose not to call him names, it's your choice to do what you want (you being anyone, not a single person in particular). I just felt that something needed to be said. Dana

So nobody but me saw anything in the video that seemed a bit shakey? No one with any insight on the "gold theft" motive or "windows popping out" issues I raised? ...I thought Taz & Edward both suggested, from their positions, that we should not take it all at face value...no one saw anything fishy or suspect from the producer's side of things...hmmmmm....

Bou...I have never said that I didn't find anything suspect ...on the contrary my suspicions led me to research for the better part of a week...I am not so naive as to rely on the information in just one video....and I still have come to no concrete answers...but I'm working on it! Dana...nowhere in this post have I attacked anyone or called anyone names although I can see where someone might be insensed by his rather egregious remarks, however I chose to bite my tongue and take the high road....everyone is entitled to their opinion I don't care who they are or how far their beliefs differ from mine. I will reiterate my point of bringing this video to this forum was not to force my beliefs on anyone but instead to gather opinions and thoughts from others in order to help make my mind up...I still have not done so....the only conclusion that I have come to is that whatever the truth is the "truth" that we took for granted as fact ( at least most of us...some people are much smarter than me and saw the inherent problems much sooner) was indeed NOT fact and that there are many questions that need answers.I have no doubt that if those answers were ever to be forthcoming it will be a long time from now... I have no doubt that we were lied to and that is pretty much all I can offer for now but I'm workin on it... Tim...I harbor no delusions of grandeur that my humble efforts to get this video watched will change much ...its kinda like educating people about the tattoo industry...if only one person actually listens and we save one person from contracting AIDS, hep or MRSA then our humble attempts were indeed worth it...TAz

TAz, Facts was definitely the wrong word...........................my bad!! I meant to say that the evidence contrary to what we were being told was there all along..................not actually facts. And it doesn't speak anything in general about peoples intelligence on the matter, as I said, for those who cared to look. If nothing struck you as odd, and you didn't go looking for holes in the story, everything would appear as it seemed. But there is a point when things begin to become undeniable............ Don't you find it somewhat curious that Ari Fleischer (?) resigned from his position as White House spokesperson not long after things began to look really fishy? TCE

caribou, I thought the same thing when i first looked at the video, and like taz i looked at a few others to see if I could find any conflicting info. The statement you made about the windows blowing out as a result of the building collapsing on the inside is true, but why did the building collapse in the first place? there is NO WAY that those small ass fires got hot enough to weaken shit enough to collapse that BIG ASS building. Were talking common sense here. And on the second tower that was hit, the plane didnt even hit flush on the side of the building, it hit the corner, again NO WAY that shit should have brought that building down. And as for video editing, I remember watching the newscast on 9-11 and I clearly remember seeing a fighter jet blow by in the reflection on the building. Any videos you pull up now dont have that. And that shit at the pentagon is just plain common sense. Oh well, to each his own. I just think that too much of that shit points to an inside job. Just my .02

Dana, normally I think you are a pretty cool chick, and I'm a pretty zenny guy myself, but let me tell you something. You picked the wrong prick to defend on this one. Because it makes precious little difference if this video is legit or not. That's not what I have an issue with. What I have a SERIOUS issue with is his statement: "I advocate revolution. The country needs to be uprooted and turned into a democracy. As it functions now it is a participatory republic at best. The government calls it a democracy in order to make its' blind inhabitants think that they exist in the best possible political situation. Think of the allegory of the matrix. If we do not know that anything else exists, could it exist? If you so wish to fight to the death to defend this murderous, incestuous war crime ridden nation, go ahead. But by defending this nation you are no better than the so called heroes in Iraq who are complacently murdering innocent civilians. Just because you think you are defending something just, does make your view correct. I will be leaving this nation when I am finished with my studies, and unfortunately all that I will be able to say later in life is yes, I did live in the most apathetic nation on the face of the planet, and yes, the american empire did deserve to fall as a result of their attrocities committed around the world and for their piggish consumption and destruction of natural resources". Now, you know what? everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm a pretty educated guy as well, but pardon me while my redneck shows through for a moment. This is an ignorant advocation from a self-admitted user, and parasite. This guy is advocating revolution? When he's leaving? Whatever. His statement is indefensable, and I hope I know you well enough to know that you're not going to try to defend what this guy said. I'm not ignorant. I'm not blind. That statement was patently offensive to anyone who has ever been connected with fighting to keep this country the kind of place where you CAN say something that ignorant without fearing for your life. Normally I find your "High-Road" mentality rather endearing. I subscribe to it normally myself. But on this one, sorry. I can't go with you. I guess I'm just gonna have to go slumming for a while. If that's dissappointing to you, I'll just have to learn to live with that.

King Kreations: An inside job.. interesting. I would like you to clarify this point. You kind of left it hanging. Are you meaning an inside job as in: All of 9-11 was an inside job, or that the towers may have fallen from something other than the planes hitting them, etc... I'm not ripping on you. Your final sentence intrigued me. That's all. theval

To piggyback (a little bit) on what Daddy Rose said: I realize that I could have written my response to *ahem* that guy a bit more intelligently than what I did. However, the utter contempt that he showed while making the statement about "so called heroes" crawled under my skin at an alarming pace. I could very well have taken the high road, but in this case I felt that a simple 'Fuck You' was adequate. The word asshole was in a statement to Doc regarding a separate post about a similar matter on a different day. Everyone on the forum that has gotten to know me through my posts knows that I usually take the high road, offer constructive criticism and I generally post intelligent responses to topics. (Any threads where we are screwing around are naturally not included in that statement. Those are fun, and I refuse to be serious in those). I don't usually come at anyone in the way that I did, unless they have pissed me off to no end. I fully believe he deserved every ounce of contempt and smartassness that he received over that blatently idiotic statement that he made. It crossed one hell of a line, and being a member of the Armed Forces, I refuse to let a statement like that about all my brothers and sisters go unanswered. So I'm sticking with the FUCK YOU. theval

And as a Viet Nam veteran I defend her (theval) and anyone else's right to say FUCK YOU to anyone who has the contempt to say those words. Any asshole who can say such a thing doesn't deserve the 'high road' and I'm usually one to show some restraint before cutting loose on someone, but NOT on this, no fucking way. If that asshole had said that in my presense, he'd be in an Intensive Care unit, IF he survived and I am NOT talking shit or trying to come off as billy badass but I am not one to fuck with, least of all about the things I care about most, you really don't want to go there. I'm angry as hell over this whole fucked up subject, I wish some asshole would give me a way to vent some ofthis anger in a more personal manner than this forum allows...Doc

"""I will be leaving this nation when I am finished with my studies, and unfortunately all that I will be able to say later in life is yes, I did live in the most apathetic nation on the face of the planet, and yes, the american empire did deserve to fall as a result of their attrocities committed around the world and for their piggish consumption and destruction of natural resources". """" Hmmmm...really? Still going to suck up some of our academia before you go though? I'd like to be the first to contribute to a one way ticket out of here for you. Might I suggest Somalia or perhaps, Dafur Sudan?

Doc ,Theval, Al...I want to make sure that you guys know that I was not in any way defending this turd of a man....and I agree with every word each of you said....I guess I am kinda tryin to be a different me lately...I dunno ...a month ago I would have burned his ears off for the things he said...I have somehow changed over the past few weeks into a kinder gentler TAz....I think I got sick of reading posts from assinine guys like this and not being able to take out a kneecap since this is afterall the internet...it was/is frustrating as hell to me...have you guys noticed that my replies seem a bit different?....And I'm not even doing it on purpose...its an inner thing I suppose... I just wanted to let ya know that I am behind you a million percent...this guy edward is a douche bag no doubt...just like all the other people the world over...they have their hand out for anything this country can give...and we give a LOT...but as soon as they get what they want they despise us...its sickening!....I'm just tired guys...thats all...hope I didn't let ya down too much...TAz

TAz, You've shown incredible tolerance, nothing wrong with that.................one of these days, this guy will run across a guy like DOC, who isn't quite at the point you are, and he'll show 'em what it's like! LOL!! TCE

Taz, what, are you kidding? You are fine! Why would you even think that? Sometimes its just easier to pass off the ball and have someone else run with it. We can hack it. We've got big shoulders. You just sit back and relax brutha...

Thanks buddy!

Al did ya get the pic of that jazz bass I sent?

Taz, 'forget about it', I doubt anyone regular here doubts your stand or seriousness on this matter, ya didn't need to tell us what we already know. And believe me, I for one understand just where you're 'coming from' and the 'being tired', thinking about this shit is draining, ya know? But, like you, I CAN'T leave it alone, the more I research the more fucked up the whole thing looks, as I'm sure you know. I wish I could mellow out a bit, even my son, Damien has been asking me 'what's wrong, Daddy?' And I damn sure can't/won't talk about it with him or when he's close enough to hear. I'm falling a bit behind on my custom work but well, somehow my heart just ain't in it right now and I'm far more in the mood to be DESTRUCTIVE than creative...Doc

Taz, 'forget about it', I doubt anyone regular here doubts your stand or seriousness on this matter, ya didn't need to tell us what we already know. And believe me, I for one understand just where you're 'coming from' and the 'being tired', thinking about this shit is draining, ya know? But, like you, I CAN'T leave it alone, the more I research the more fucked up the whole thing looks, as I'm sure you know. I wish I could mellow out a bit, even my son, Damien has been asking me 'what's wrong, Daddy?' And I damn sure can't/won't talk about it with him or when he's close enough to hear. I'm falling a bit behind on my custom work but well, somehow my heart just ain't in it right now and I'm far more in the mood to be DESTRUCTIVE than creative...Doc

NO. YOU TEASE. No attachment. I've noticed that our emails may not be crossing paths quite right occasionally, cause sometimes you are answering things out of sequence from what I've asked. Might be something f'd up with one of our emails. In any event, no biggie. We get there. But if you'd resend it, I'd love to see it!!! Just need the attachment...

Ok Al I will resend but it will have to be tomorrow night...I have to go nite nite with Virgil right now and I doubt if I can sneak back out of the room!!...See you all tomorrow!!!

Good! Got your priorities in the right place!!!!

Taz, all I'm saying...and badly it seems...is that you and other thinking members of this place suggest close examination of how things appear and how they really are, but no one is offering up any specific examples of how they are looking at this video with a critical eye as well. King, See, that's what I'm talking about. I agree with you the ultimate question remains as to why the building began to implode in the first place...whether it was 'helped along' or not...but my point is IF there is a plausible explanation for those blow-outs that does not involve immediate explosives, then this weakens the over all fabric of the video unneccesarily. It seems, over all, a well thought out hypothesis with plenty of solid arguments already...why would they include something with such a plausible alternate explanation, one even noticed by a non-technichal guy such as myself no less...it just seems to serve as a useful window of opportunity for those who might be looking for ways to attack their credibility. Theval, "inside job thing"...not really something King is spinning...it's kind of the whole premise & spin of the video...The fact that it's refered to by many as "9-11 coverup"...kind of says it all right there... I guess I'm just finding this video is getting a bit too much of the "Emperor's new video" treatment. From what I've learned so far from tattoo artist culture, no favor is done, between artists, by greeting another artist's medieocre tattoo with a vanilla "that's nice". The useful comment, showing true concern & respect for the other artist is "nice color blending, but the lines are a bit shakey and they could be a bit thicker right there and, oh yeah, .you forgot the shading behind the tip of that banner there... Yeah there are plenty of points enough to raise suspicion, but take off the kid gloves fer crissakes and let's examine the obvious & less obvious warts too. Nothing is served by pretending they are not there out of politeness or ????? ... .A challenge for everyone here...find something specific about the video's suggestions or examples that seem particularly weak, or could have a plausible alternate explanation, and throw it up here...doesn't have to be big enough to trash the over all premise of the video, just treat the video as if it was a tattoo and someone was asking for an honest critique... Yes it's a nice tattoo, but stop just saying "Nice tattoo."!

Bou....I feel no need for any specifics...I have never even given my opinion on the damn thing yea or nay...I was just throwing it out there for people to come TO THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS! Of course here are many points that can be argued, but instead of wasting my time arguing I am spending that time researching...I have no opinion as yet on either the gold thing OR the blowouts....read my last 4 posts ...I DO NOT KNOW YET!!!! But I'm workin on it!

I can understand why everyone was so upset with this guy..I don't agree with all that crap he said either. He started out cool then went downhill. I think you all are confused a little. I wasn't defending him, I chose to react to him in a different way. At no point did I say that people should react to him in the way that I did. I totally understand why people such as Theval and Doc would detest his comments being in the armed forces, and trust me I'm not far from detesting them either. Tell him to Fuck Off...it's no skin off my back and he probably deserves it. I just don't choose to do it. All I was saying, and I'll say it again, is you can't judge a total person by a few awful comments...people say shit they don't mean all the time. I'll agree I picked the wrong person to make this statement with. It just took me aback because most of the time when people make dumbass comments that have no standing and are completely off the wall the regulars on this forum tell them they disagree then ignore them. Obviously this was a little different and a little closer to the heart. So sorry to get people's panties in a bunch, I certaintly was not trying to defend the guy or even remotely agree with him on those statements. The only thing I agreed with was to be open minded and do more research...then he went downhill. So...yeah. The end Dana

Doc, Don't let all this shit tone down your creative streak! I totally agree that we need to stand up and do something and make some noise, but you're an artist...if you lose track of that then they get closer to winning. Somehow we have to find the balance between making a difference and maintaining the american dream, which for each of us is unique. I'm sure you've already done it, but do some art about all the anger you have about this...I'm sure it would help and it'd probably be some kickass art! Dana

Yowza, I guess living around here Im more used to radicle hard-line intolerance to illegal wars. I guess I'll stick my neck out a bit here... I apologize for not editing this down a bit, so little time in the day for important topics like this. About the offensive remark... the question is(I think), who is morally responsible for the innocent lives taken in an illegal war that we started pre-emptively? Are those soldiers heros or criminals? Who is responsible for those horrifying actions? Personally I want to take the moral responsibilities of illegal wars (like vietnam and Iraq and the others) off the soldiers shoulders and put them on mine and my governments. After the vets experiences coming home from Vietnam, I think the American public has learned to lay blame with the administration, after all, our soldiers are willing to sacrifice their lives and families lives to do what they are told by the administration, whether good or bad. They need the publics support to do their job. That said, the families of the civilian deaths dont give two fucks about our freedoms over here, their fathers and mothers and children and getting killed, and our soldiers are in many cases directly responsible. They are in-directly responsible for all of it via our administration sending them in to topple their infrastructure. As hard as it is to stomach, we do know that soldiers do have an inescapable moral price to pay for their actions, following orders isnt a good enough excuse for killing innocents by mistake. Or torturing them. The Iraqis dont need to rationalize the deaths of their family members up the chain of command to our decision makers... indeed they will stop at nothing to extract revenge on our soldiers who are occupying their country with big guns. I have sympathy for both the victims and their families of the innocents and for the soldiers who have to endure the mental stress of killing innocents (and getting killed). War is hell, and we started it pre-emptively and unjustly. Thats a big price we all have to pay, indeed the military more so than anyone else(with their lives and health). If I didnt have a wife and kid here in America I most likely would have left when bush got elected again, if not when we invaded Iraq. Sure, this country needs people like me here (ha, thats the egomaniac in me) but you know what? If this country really votes for fucks that dont give a shit about the working class and wage illegal wars, then I dont mind traveling the world and landing in europe, maybe someplace a bit socialist even. Someplace where the representatives who are the voice of the people match better with my lifestyle. You only live once, its gotta be easier to find the right spot on earth to settle than to mold the spot your in to be perfect. While there are plenty of great things about America, this system is very !@#$%ed and its going to take a LOT of work to get back on the right track. I feel the weight of our actions in the world from the past to present, and living somewhere else would relieve the responsibility of paying taxes into a corrupt system hell bent on max profits for the few at all costs. Its a cultural problem and I think "my kind' is more welcome in other places. I landed in a little progressive bubble here in western mass, so at least my kid isnt growing up in a completely apathetic community... And Im here, so we will be fighting with all our might for education and arts and brining our military back to health and getting this country on that moral highground, cause if you earn it (by having a hard working intelligent responsible kind population) it is very powerful. Tattooing has taught me that everything good in life is a very soft sell. We shouldnt have to push America on anyone... Theres no good reason to get mad at Ed for leaving the country, if he doesnt want to live here thats cool, he's more than welcome back. Hell, diss it on the way out and if and when Ed learns that America's way is the better, he can return no worries from us a little humbler. The USA is big and strong enough not to care if some people take their education and leave. Or it should be. Indeed, while this country needs educated folks who question everything desperately, yelling at people who are leaving isnt the way to do it, making the culture and country so awesome and pure theres no reason to leave or for other peoples to hate us is the way... In any event, while the statement is offensive to many, I do believe wholeheartedly we need to hear "our story" from both sides of the moral perspective. Are we heros or criminals? Call us criminals, and when we can open our hearts to the world and say that our Military might is being used ONLY for heroic moral purposes ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the time and prove it by having an open government not afraid of scrutiny then we will have passed the test. Until we can answer a charge like this with "Indeed, sir, no matter what your crazy conspiracy theory is, reality shows that the country only uses its armed forces when our homeland is attacked, and then we abide by the highest moral rules possible while investing the resources to end the conflict as bloodlessly, quickly, and decisively as possible. Whenever the need for armed conflict is unavoidable, we insure our culture is balanced and spends equal resources to education and peaceful diplomacy to insure our best efforts to avoid armed conflict in the future." then I cant really fault someone for searching for that place. When a country and/or its soldiers are charged with imperialism, we only have the high ground if that charge is false. One could argue that a good citizen has an obligation to stay and dedicate their life to changing the culture for the better, but I for one will never fault someone for opting for traveling and finding a better place to live. While questioning the hero/criminal status of our armed forces is offensive by its nature(and certianly not the proper way to insure the military protects your ass), I believe its important to explore these viewpoints to take steps that the charges can never be true. That way you can feel the moral weight on your shoulders and take steps to relieve yourself of it. In short, I dont think a soldier that kills a family by accident in Iraq is morally responsible, I feel like I am. I also feel the weight of that family's friends and their obligation for revenge. Makes me want to work real hard to get our men and women back home to safety and their families and insure these types of military blunders dont happen again. Because our soldiers protect us with their life, we owe our lives to protect them from being used un-necessarily, or worse, for greed.

Gabe, You said everything I was trying/ wanting to say but much better! Thanks! Although I found some of the things Ed said offensive, it's the other side of the coin, and to dismiss his views, or other opposing views, is to miss out on the complexities of war, politics, and the events of 9/11. Ed has the right to say what he wants, other people have the right to say Fuck Off, and I just want to understand, to the best of my abilites, all sides. Our country was founded on the principles that anyone can come here and live and believe what they choose, to dismiss opposing views works against this principle. You can disagree, you can get angry, but every person has as much right to be here and to say what they want as anyone else. My hope is to cultivate the free speech that is apparent on this forum to discuss all sides, to create a place where hope can be maintained and grown through discussion and tolerance of opposing views. Although my hope of peace amongst opposing groups has been faltering ALOT lately, I try to maintain a small semblance of hope that reasonable people will tolerate and listen to every angle, and maybe others will follow (there's the egomaniac in me!). Small change is better than no change, and I've always seen acceptance of opposing views leading to a higher rates of friendliness than angry words and dismissals. Just my point of view. Overly optimistic, probably, but it's all I've got right now. Dana

Gabe...you just went up a few notches on the TAz scale... if that means anything at all...T

Damn, Taz! "...I feel no need for any specifics...I have never even given my opinion on the damn thing yea or nay" That's totally fine if that's the way you feel, but don't know how you can say it with a straight face that you yourself started of with: "..just please watch the video then e-mail me or post your opinions here " By definition , opinions are not fact. You don't need to "know" to have an opinion... And gabe, With ya about 95% I'd only diverge in the prospect of finding something better somewhere else...with all of it's flaws "this" is probably the best place in the world...I'm sort of lumping Canada/U.S. into "this". and the reason it is worth trying to fix rather than leaving is because of each individual...taken one at a time, most people are pretty decent and NorthAmerica, even with all of it's gaffs and atrocities is a grand experiment. The only real shame is if we do not learn from our errors. Some times I look at my cat waiting for it's food dish and think, if he was the size of a tiger he wouldn't be waiting...I'd be lunch. The U.S is a big Cat. Power is a bitch-goddess...hard not to abuse power if you really have it in spades...individuals can be moral...I don't trust goverments to be so...

Gabe, I really agree with you, i'd just caution everyone that it's sweeping generalizations that always get us in trouble. That's what I was trying to say. What about the tons of Americans all over the place that don't agree with what's going on, and would love to change things? There's a lot of us. I think this country, which I define as the land, it's people are worth fighting for..

Gabe, I really agree with you, i'd just caution everyone that it's sweeping generalizations that always get us in trouble. That's what I was trying to say. What about the tons of Americans all over the place that don't agree with what's going on, and would love to change things? There's a lot of us. I think this country, which I define as the land, it's people are worth fighting for..

Gabe, I really agree with you, i'd just caution everyone that it's sweeping generalizations that always get us in trouble. That's what I was trying to say. What about the tons of Americans all over the place that don't agree with what's going on, and would love to change things? There's a lot of us. I think this country, which I define as the land, it's people are worth fighting for..

I think many have to think why Bush did get elected? As an independent I actually blame the far left, not the Rebublicans, for ise being in office. Masses of people HATED Kerry (and his wife) and the far left platform. This next election will speak volumes. I know I vote. As far as the video. I'm still wondering if we actually landed on the moon? mew

Kerry too far left? You gotta be kidding me... Jesus, if that soft rich millionaire is the far left what am I??? I think Kerry lost cause he didnt have the balls to fight back dirty... I think affluence and being beholden to big corporations makes one soft. Mamacat, can you define far left?

also, I have to admit I dont understand the logic behind blaming people who are vocal and actively against Bush for his being elected...? Shouldn't blame rest squarely on the people who DID vote for him (And those who enabled the cheating)?

Careful Gabe! Household Harmony! Household Harmony!!! (LOL!)

Info @ burlap....what the FUCK are you saying?..you make NO sense...I have never offered an opinion...I do not have one as of yet....of course I say that with a straight face...its the truth....don't even try to twist my words..I say EXACTLY what I mean in no uncertain terms...I DO want everyones opinion...and those opinions along with my own independent research will give me what I need to make an INFORMED decision...I am not there yet BUT I AM WORKING ON IT!!! FUUUCCCKKK!!!!

I know I voted for Kerry basically because he was the lesser of two evils...and I certaintly won't take any blame for Bush being in office. Personally, I've been pissed at the Democrats, which I'm registered as one, because they haven't stepped up. If Bush were a democrat and doing all this shit than you can be damn sure the republicans would have had his ass out of office fast! Now, I know you need a majority and all that crap, which the Democrats do not have, but that's where us voters come in...get people who can make a difference in the majority and get the liars out of office! The lesser of two evils, they will still be rich pricks, but maybe they'll be rich pricks who make some decent changes that the american people actually want! Dana

. Masses of people HATED Kerry (and his wife) and the far left platform."" Maybe it's agrammer mistake on my part, but what I meant was too many people hated Kerry, and too many people hated the far left agenda.platform that was "linked" to voting democratic. I personally feel Kerry was a REALLY bad choice to pick as a running mate against Bush. I feel that's were we lost it, in the primary election. Gotta run.. meow

. Masses of people HATED Kerry (and his wife) and the far left platform."" Maybe it's agrammer mistake on my part, but what I meant was too many people hated Kerry, and too many people hated the far left agenda.platform that was "linked" to voting democratic. I personally feel Kerry was a REALLY bad choice to pick as a running mate against Bush. I feel that's were we lost it, in the primary election. Gotta run.. meow

. Masses of people HATED Kerry (and his wife) and the far left platform."" Maybe it's agrammer mistake on my part, but what I meant was too many people hated Kerry, and too many people hated the far left agenda.platform that was "linked" to voting democratic. I personally feel Kerry was a REALLY bad choice to pick as a running mate against Bush. I feel that's were we lost it, in the primary election. Gotta run.. meow

I mis-spoke a bit, I didnt want Kerry to fight back dirty, but he should have been able to fight the dirty tricks back easily and strongly with the truth and higher ground. He either had it and didnt fight hard enough because of his handlers, or didnt have it. I would never advocate anyone fight dirty or that people who do have more balls (indeed it takes more guts to fight fair in the face of dirtiness).

I was no massive fan of Kerry, but he should have taken the election hands down (some would argue he did, the exit polls have never been so "wrong" in the face of so much obvious cheating). Certainly people hate the left, but how is that our fault for Bush being elected? Also, what is your definition of left? and far left?

Taz, what I said / am saying is, You don't want to offer your opinion on a thread that you started expressly asking everyone for theirs. You are comfortable asking others to watch the video and voice their opinions, yet when someone offers theirs and asks the exact same from you in return you get all defensive... You're a stand up guy Taz, but I don't see how I'm doing any 'twisting' here. I think I'm making perfect sense...but I've been wrong many times before, so who knows... If I was asking you or anyone else for a "conclusion" I could see how that could be seen as putting cart before horse...but I'm asking for opinions just as you are taz...

If the following quote does not hint to an underlying opinion then I guess I took too many crazy pills this morning... """"For those who think this is all just another nutjob conspiracy theory... Fact one...there is not one fact to prove that a boeing 757 airliner crashed into the Pentagon...no recognizable parts of an airplane of ANY sort were found there...their story...that the plane "vaporized" upon contact...if that were true then how did the forensics team identify the bodies?...do you really believe that human flesh and bone would withstand the collision when not one fragment of the so called "airliner"survived?...And how does an object with a wingspan of over 175 feet and a tail fin about 47 feet tall fit through a hole approximately SIXTEEN FEET IN DIAMETER leaving no evidence of the imact on either side of that 16 foot hole??Think about it! Fact two...where are the remains of flight 93 that supposedly crashed into the ground?...And again how could the bodies have been forensically identified when titanium ( one of the hardest metals in the WORLD) airplane parts supposedly vaporized? Again ...just THINK about it!! I could go on and on but I won't...if you are a thinking person you can do your own homework...I am not here to convince you either way...just wanted to offer a couple of things to get your brain boiling ...start the thought process...if you do your homework and just spend a couple of hours searching you will be just as chilled in the soul as I am...THINK ABOUT IT!!!!....TAz""""

FAR left to me in a nut shell is = to far right Christain Rebulicans. Like the people who go to funerals of military men and say they deserved to die. YOU cannot take either seriously and if one candidate panders to them........forget it. Again this is what I base my vote on. I cannnot WAIT to see the next primary. Will the Dems have learned ANYTHING?

This thread also makes me think of Wag The Dog. Someone may have already posted it, and I missed it?

Dana, thanks for the suggestion but I'm a man, vet and a patriot as well as an artist and believe me, I'm really trying to keep this shit in perspective and not allow it to consume me. I love what I do and almost desperately wish I could get back to business as usual but so far, I can't, believe me, I've tried and I need to, economically as well as mentally. Unfortunately I'm one of those people who when really mad gets 'body tremors', my entire body vibrates like a tuning fork, so to speak, which renders me unable to draw, let alone tattoo anyone. Luckily my doctor prescribed something that helps get the shakes under control but the stuff makes me a bit sleepy so I only use it when I have a tattoo to do. But, it doesn't stop me from thinking about all this, not just THAT day but all the ramifications that resulted and are resulting because of it and it sure as hell ain't all over yet, not by a long shot. Gabe, I' m pretty sure I understand what you mean and agree with you, as a Viet Nam vet I know all too well how we were treated when we came 'home' and THAT left worse scars than either of the wounds that got me the purple hearts. I just want folks to remember it's not the soldiers who started this (or ANY war), they are just doing what they are led to believe is 'right' and being led to think they are fighting for our freedom and 'the American way of life' (whatever the hell that really is anymore) And you are most definitely correct in what you said regarding the civilian deaths and how that undoubtedly effects how not only the Iragi's think about 'us' but also how the rest of the world views Americans, not just the American government. Again, my own experience makes me aware of how hard it is to convince anyone you're trying to HELP them when you're killing them, tearing their families apart and destroying their land in the name of 'peace' and/or for their own good. Like the 'average' Iraqi really ever supported the shit Saddam was doing in the first place, right? As to what you said about 'killing innocents by mistake or torturing them', I agree, of course, and certainly can't see where that 'helps' anything. But I want to point out something very germane to that issue I think bears being mentioned. Do you or most 'civilians' have any real idea what it's like to be in that position, seeing brothers/sisters in arms blown away on a daily basis, rarely-if ever- really getting a peaceful nights sleep, never knowing if you will ever see home/family again, seeing the real horrors of war 'up close and personal' and not even being too sure just who the enemy really is? Also bear in mind how long many of those troops have been there, it takes a toll on ya, I assure you. I'm NOT saying it's right but it definitely deserves consideration. I also agree that this war was unjust, I've never understood why it was 'neccessary' in the first place, least of all for the reason given by a government I haven't trusted in a LONG time, not just the most recent bunch. 'Our' government hasn't been working for 'us' for a long time as you certainly seem to realize, it's like an entity on it's own, we just feed it and deal with the consequences while 'they' profit from it. I sure as hell don't know what the answer is, the more I research, the more questions I have...Doc *I know this may well be way out of sync with recent post, I started this at 12:40 PM but with all the interuptions and doing a tattoo, I just finished it I

Hey Doc, Sorry to hear that...but I'm sure with all you've been through and all you know, you'll get through this too and have a lot more to give to everyone around you. Although I can't understand fully like you were saying, I've never seen combat or most likely half the things you have, but I do understand thinking about this stuff all the time. Worrying about the state of the world and what's my place in it, how I can help, etc. I try, do my best to hope, vote, think, consider, and talk with people around me, basically continue on in the hopes of peace. What more can I do? Seriously, any suggestions! :) Dana

Guys, I hate to say this but I think a lot of people are assigning qualities to war that just aren't part of war. I HATE war, but I think doc is right here. He didn't say it, but I will... and if it's the end of my tenure on this forum, I apologize. But The administration can be wrong. The policy can be wrong. The people can be wrong. The whole thing can be patently morally wrong to the core of human being. There is no excuse. War is evil. War is killing. Soldiers do what they have to do to stay alive. And sometimes, unfortunately, inexcusably, more. But if you are a combat soldier, and have to live through this stuff... it's a different kind of real, and I can totally understand the motto... kill em all. Let god sort em out.

Caribou...first allow me to clarify...I had no idea that info @ burlap was YOU...After rereading your post about a dozen times I think I now understand what you were saying....I guess I do have the BEGINNINGS of an opinion...however I do not have any concrete \CONCLUSIONS.....My mistake for not trying to be clearer in my choice of words and I apologize for misunderstanding yours...TAz PS...I do know SOMETHING IS GOING ON THAT JUST AIN"T RIGHT...I don't know for sure what or who and like I keep sayin... I'm workin on it! Doc....settle down ...don't blame you but for your own good chill a minute!....I don't like seeing you upset like this....it upsets me..T

Goddammit Doc!!! I think you need a time out!!!! Step away from the forum for a week, like I did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and TAz did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and let the dust in your head settle a little bit. There's no point in giving yourself a stroke over this................... Things are exactly the same as they've been since 9/11, the only thing that's different is the scope of what we think we may know. Keep in mind, none of this is infallable information, and just when we think we have it all figured out, another piece of evidence is going to come to light, and the theories are going to change again. If you've fought for peoples freedom to think as they please, don't get upset when they do....................it's not worth it. Love ya bud!! TCE

DaddyRose, you're not going to leave the forum if someone disagrees with you! Come on! :) Say what you want to say, if people get heated at first they'll eventually listen...human nature my man! And war sucks. period. awful things happen. period. Will it ever change...most likely not. I in no way advocate for war, but throughout history it has been a part of life, and it always will, sad but true. Again, human nature, sad but true. Dana

Thanks for the concern folks but I'll be alright, I'm a survivor, it's just that this shit really hits me hard and the potential repercussions are mind boggling. I think my tired ol brain is trying to absorb too much shit at one time. I'm going to take a few days off on the research stuff and try to sort out what I've been reading. I may not be reading/posting on this subject for a few (if I can restrain myself-unlikely) but again, don't worry 'bout me but thanks for the concern. And tce, it ain't that butthead that's got to me, it's all the stuff I've been coming across research this issue, there's alot out there about it beyond just those vids and I think I'm a bit pissed at myself for not having noticed some of it myself, I am usually VERY observant, it's one of the reason folks tell me I'm such a good artist, I'm a 'detail freak', I notice details most people don't even see. I've told folks, I suspect it may have been 'shock' watching all that shit happen live on CNN, hearing the various reports, seeing the towers come down- all of it, ya know? Like most Americans, I think that was one of the most fucked up days of my life and I've hardly led what anyone in their 'right mind' would consider a 'shelter life' but, well, this is 'different', ya know?...again, thanks for the concern..Doc

Doc you and I are in the same fucked up and leaky boat...from the very first time I watched that video I was just all fuggered up...its crazy...and yeah I feel like I should have noticed something before this...and maybe I did...maybe we both did but our minds just wouldn't let us think in those terms...I too have been spending WAY too much time researching this subject and the deeper I get into it the more fucked up things I am learning...I am not a naive guy either...Never been in the military but I grew up in a war zone...South Central LA...so I have seen a few things...I'm not the squeamish type...and I realize that any government is gonna do its share of of lying and covering up and that...but Goddamn...this is beyond anything I could ever have believed...I almost ( almost I said) wish I hadn't watched the Damned thing..But better to have your eyes open in this situation I guess huh?...Even my son is really tore up about it....I think you and I both know that we need to do something...but like my boy says..what the fuck can we do.?..I almost feel guilty for even bringing this video to light on this forum...but its starting to get a LOT of exposure now and I think would have eventually come to light here anyway...Hell I was eating breakfast at Perkins this morning with my parents and overheard people at the next table talking about it and they all had a kind of shell shocked look on their faces.. So Doc ol pal...whats next?...Email me and tell me what you think we should do next...what we CAN do...if anything...TAz

Taz and Doc, It actually is very uplifting to hear that views can change with time.............................I know that a lot of Americans 'weren't brought up to think like that', and sometimes it's easier to do what is popular, and seemingly patriotic, and get behind the President. What is truly patriotic is doing our best to make sure our country does not become a police state.....................to ensure that it remains in the power of its' citizens, and not a handful of lunatics. Sadly, so many injustices have already been perpetrated, and yet, there they remain. My fear is that so much of our power has been swept away in the spirit of National Security, that short of a civil war, we really are powerless............................and even that scenario is bleak when there are mad men at the helm. The only way to make a loud and clear statement to our government is for the nation to grind to a halt,,,,,,,,,,if only for a day. Of course the ones with the most clout are the ones who benefit most from current affairs, so even there we are divided. What is an effective and viable solution? TCE

I don't know... I just do NOT know.

Maybe irrelevant. I was watching the history channel today, and they were on the subject of the Free Masons...I couldn't help but wonder what they think about all this...

...guess it depends on whether they are involved or not! ;-)

Hey Taz, ...fast moving thread! I missed your post on the last flip through... No need to appologize to me! I tend to boil my ideas down to shorthand...sometimes it works out great and I sound really smart...some times I sound like a total idiot! I am aware of the perils/pitfalls of my habit... "PS...I do know SOMETHING IS GOING ON THAT JUST AIN"T RIGHT" I don't think anyone but those involved or those in serious denial would say otherwise...I'm with ya TAZ, I just think sometimes another good way to verify something is to try to disprove it rather than prove it...Both are valid ways to research and I was just playing with 'the other way'.

Oh yeah Bou I agree and that is just what I have done ...unfortunately all I have been able to accomplish is to dig up more stuff that I do not like the smell of...T

hey folks... I'm not taking a side on this, but I thought I would show you all something that I read on the internet a couple of days ago because I'm a internet geek. It might piss some of you off but not if you have a sense of humor. http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons once again, I take no position on this...

Taz, I think ya hit the ol nail dead on it's head, I too think we are in the same boat as ya said and I too almost wish I'd never gotten into this shit but then, I ain't never been good at playing ostrich, besides, it's too late for that now anyways. Like you've stated, the more I research, the more I KNOW that what DID happen that day did NOT happen the way they told us and, like you, I've checked out more than just those vids. Like I said, I'm taking a bit of a break from further research but I can't leave this alone, no way. As to what we can do 'next', that too is part of my frustration, just what CAN we do, especially IF in fact it WAS 'staged' like I'm believing it had to be, just how can we 'fight' it, considering the power and money behind it and knowing, if it was 'staged' there are some powerful and resourceful people behind this who apparently will stop at nothing to do whatever they want. I think, at least for now, all we can do is try to get as many people to research this info and if enough people get involved, then perhaps we can get some change (maybe)...Doc

Wo ...thanks for that link man...I had already seen it this very morning actually and its just another bit of info to consider...and at the same time had some very funny parts even if the subject matter is anything but funny!! Thanks again Wo Doc this link that Wo gave us is one you should look at for comparison purposes!...TAz

Just a random thought on this last link...........................The government wouldn't blatantly kill someone because of their benign conspiracy theories, or for simply amassing the long existing evidence into one video..........................I mean, come on, how suspicious would that look? That would make them look guilty as sin.......heh heh. Now, a guy that designs a carberetor that gets 200 mile to the gallon.......................well that's another story altogether. That's taking care of (ones own) business. At any rate, the link was funny!! TCE

TCE, Yeah, my first thought too...much better to let the blindly patriotic label him as a crackpot than to off him... That he's still alive, in and of itself, is a non starter in proving the video is a sham... That kind of website is exactly what I was talking about interms of critical examination of the video...Granted much of the counter arguments are as questionable as some in the video if you don't bother to check and see if they are true... neither the video or that website let anyone off the hook...the truly paranoid would claim that both the video AND the anti-conspiracy site are the work of the govt' intended to keep us all squabling amongst ourselves...Divide and conquer...old but proven strategy...

Showing once again, that we're no closer to the truth. Gut instinct says something.................but the effective variables are too jumbled in these theories. Isn't the heat generated by 10,000 gallons of burning jet fuel enough to comprimise the upper level support structure of a high rise, and once that section crumbles, wouldn't it stand to reason that the weight of the falling section could cause a chain reaction in the lower levels that may not have been affected by fire, bringing the entire building down to ground level? In the case of the twin towers, I think it was entirely plausible that they collapsed as the result of burning fuel. The Pentagon, and flight 93, tell very different tales though, and I don't think it needs to be rehashed here, but the truth usually lies somewhere in between. The point is, until a disgruntled insider with a death wish decides to come clean with the facts, this is another JFK who dunnit (no pun), and we may never know who was responsible. TCE

Doc, this you asked "Do you or most 'civilians' have any real idea what it's like to be in that position, seeing brothers/sisters in arms blown away on a daily basis, rarely-if ever- really getting a peaceful nights sleep, never knowing if you will ever see home/family again, seeing the real horrors of war 'up close and personal' and not even being too sure just who the enemy really is?" Doc, I dont think we do or ever can. Thinking about putting my life on the line and being in the think of bullets and bombs away from my family for an extended period of time is a world apart, one I hope to never live in and am extremely thankful to the people who do so on my behalf. I can only image its hell on Earth. The decesion to put our kids in this situtation is very heavy. Indeed, it is not the soldiers decision to put themselves in a position to get whacked out stressed and pull the trigger on innocents but they are the ones with blood on their hands and feel the weight(and repercussions) of their actions. This lack of understanding that civilians have is one reason it amazes me that this country would choose a leader who clearly pulled strings to get out of fighting when he had the duty to as opposed to a man who went over in the think of it, fought, was decorated, and later did his part so that future soldiers would not be put in the same position. Kerry had many faults, but he should have been able to beat bush on his war record alone. I may be wrong(call me on it), but Bush is the very definition of Chicken-Hawk.... Mamacat, you wrote "FAR left to me in a nut shell is = to far right Christain Rebulicans. Like the people who go to funerals of military men and say they deserved to die. YOU cannot take either seriously and if one candidate panders to them........forget it. Again this is what I base my vote on. I cannnot WAIT to see the next primary. Will the Dems have learned ANYTHING?" Ok, first your not defining left, or far left. I want your definition! Being left (or liberal) means ... Ok, now to your point... these lefties (who are also accused of being soft and trying to "hug" the world better) don't go to soldiers funerals and say they deserve to die... I dare say these lefties dont exist in moderns America (though they certainly did in the past(though if they were lefties is questionable) and seem to be rampant in Rush and Hannitys feeble brains) but if they do they are not part of the left I know. A quick search for soldiers funerals protest has come up with many links for right winger anti-gay protesters and I never made through the links to find any liberal anti-soldier protests. Double dog dare you to find ANY public left winger who is happy when a soldier dies, indeed they(we) get MORE pissed at the unnecessary loss of life. So, you are telling us that Kerry lost your vote because he pandered to very very very few people(if they exist) who protest at soldiers funerals... Please tell me when Kerry, a decorated vet, lent one iota of support to people who protest at soldiers funerals because they think soldiers deserve to die. (rich and poor) alive and healthy. Not only is it ethical but better for business. Not for nothing, its kinda against the "liberal" code to rejoice when people die unnecessarily, indeed we spend a lot of time and energy trying to stop people from getting killed (you know, the whole anti-war anti-death penalty, half of us a re veggies/vegans (not me!), etc, etc). I think far far left borders on socialist, though, maybe I'll go dig up some definitions. but first I want to hear what you think "Left" means... Lastly, Im not picking on you, I do wholeheartedly agree that people think left is bad and that Kerry pandered to the far left agenda(he's so loaded I dont think he even know what it is!). I think that the media has re-defined left and created a divisive environment of mis-information where the public actually believes the good guys are bad and the bad guys are good. In reality Kerry was maybe a little left of center(which isnt perfect but in the right direction), and being a Leftie is far from a negative thing, indeed in the long run its very powerful...

I also read through that link debunking the video (still havnt watched video, meant to last night but I passed out...ack!). I found the logic to be pretty faulty...

On the 200mpg carburator... government wouldn't kill him the saudia's or another oil rich nation might. Oil costs this country.... Taking it out of the picture makes us self sufficient. Then would could bomb whoever we want to label as a terrorist nation. Nope the US wouldn't kill him, someone with deep pockets and a big oil spigot might. Technically:A 200mpg carb isn't possible. There's only some much chemical energy in a drop of fuel. chemically about 35% is used, but most is lost to heat rather than "other" efficiencies. The average carb can be adjusted to run "leaner", but see how well you can runs afterward. What I would like to see is a hybrid with a fuel cell and solar power. Gas 80mpg+ but mostly not needed on flat roads. Technology is there it just needs to be combined. I saw the way the tower went down. I know the physics of building demolition. The planes brought them down. wether it was a gov conspir or terrorists I can't say. All I know is the facts I know. Al Queda had no problem claiming it and supporters did party at death of thousands. If that is where the world is, I'm not sure I want to bring kids into it, but they are the ONLY chance for the future.

Keaz, Every year auto makers come up with patents for new fuel efficient means of powering automobiles.................and guess who buys them before they ever see the light of day? The oil companies. Who do you think is controlling the oil in Iraq? When was the last time the President requested another $87 billion dollars to fund the war; has it been longer that the previous two or three times? I agree that the towers did fall as a result of being hit by the planes. I mean, how is it a cover up that no parts of the planes were found in the World Trade Center? Unlike the Pentagon, dozens of videos captured the events as they unfolded. After the buildings collapsed, experts said that there should have been more debris than was in the rubble heaps............................is that a cover up? I tell you, if it is, the government must have some cutting edge real time photo shop!! As far as hybrids go, the current fare is a joke..................None of the enviromentalists who buy these things have taken into consideration where those giant batteries are going to end up when they inevitably fail, or what the replacement cost of one will be if they do ($1000.00, $3000.00, $5000.00?) It's the same old story, for every action, there is a reaction. Most of the fuel savings are realized in city driving, which is great, if that's the only driving you do. But on the highway, the mileage isn't any better than a comparable straight up gas powered vehicle. I have a car that's 20 years old that gets 45 miles to the gallon, highway or city. I can buy a lot of gas for the amount of money a new hybrid will cost. Yeah, the savings are great once you've already advanced the the money! And they're still FUGLY! TCE

Tim, I've long been a person who tries hard to think for myself and not let others do my thinking for me and, as I've stated before, I've not fully trusted our government to be completely honest in a LONG time so quite naturally I agree with what you posted yesterday, particularily in what you said 'Sadly, so many injustices have already been perpetrated, and yet, there they remain. My fear is that so much of our power has been swept away in the spirit of National Security, that short of a civil war, we really are powerless............................and even that scenario is bleak when there are mad men at the helm.' as again, I sincerely think our government has become far more SELF serving than really concerned with what's best for this country and it's citizens. As to 'Of course the ones with the most clout are the ones who benefit most from current affairs, so even there we are divided. What is an effective and viable solution?', there too I agree and like Taz, I just don't know (what to do) But I do believe something MUST be done or we're going to have a lot more problems than we already have and I honestly can't believe our present leaders are capable or even concerned about that, I think they're more a part of the problem than part of the solution. Wo, thanks for posting that 'ulternitive view' site, haven't had time to go thru ALL of it but I did read some of it but wasn't too impressed with what I read but do plan to read it all before making any 'decisions'. Again, thanks for posting it, I do want to have as much info as I can find before I can even begin to sort this shit out. And 'bou, I think your 'Divide and conquer...old but proven strategy'...is also a very valid point and one that's been used, quite effectively for years, good point. Gabe, thank you for responding to what I said regarding what it's actually like to serve during actual war and I KNOW most civilians don't really comprehend what it's like or what it does to you, as well as the fact that it's not anything they really had much personal choice about per se, other than the fact most joined knowing they might be called upon to protect OUR country, OUR way of life- not to kill/die for 'hidden agendas' disguised as legitimate reason. I too, quite naturally can't understand how we can ever have a 'commander in chief' who never actually served in any war, never actually witnessed anyone killed 'up close and personal', never experienced what war really is from being in it and used his dad's influence to avoid 'active duty', and I also think he's a 'chicken-hawk' to say the least. Personally, I do not think anyone who has not personally served active duty during a war should ever be allowed to run for President in this country, because, perhaps if they personally had seen what war is REALLY like, hopefully then they might not be so quick to send others off to fight/die and/or come back mangled, physically and/or mentally. Personally I'd like to have seen McCain become President, at least he's 'been there, done that' and earned the right to be 'commander in chief' far more than the chickenshit, rich brat we got stuck with. As to this 'far left'-'far right', frankly, I don't even know what any of that really means but I do know the difference between right and wrong and what is and is not good for this country and it's citizens, not which political party gets 'browny points' for passing some bill to make itself look better, which often seems more important to 'them' than what's good for the nation. I'm not too sure Kerry would have been that much better, myself, and I'm pretty discouraged to have to chose between which of two rich fucks who are so far removed from the 'average' citizen we get to choose from to head a goverment primarily composed of other rich, self serving asswipes who more often than not, have never had to struggle to pay their bills, never worked an honest day in their lives and have no real concept of what the average citizen has to deal with. These turds can't even speak for themselves, they have 'speech writers' and I can't see why anyone of integrity can't do their OWN talking, without all that crap (which we, the taxpayers pay for I might add) I do not even claim to know the 'answers' but I do, wholeheartedly, believe we need some REAL change in our government, elected officials who truly serve the citizens and country, not just their 'party', selves and the big spenders who get them onto the ballots in the first place or I think we're far more fucked than anyone realizes...Doc

Doc you're right...the system needs MAJOR changes. I think there is a spark of hope, we can try to change our government. Granted it's not an easy task and we have to work within the already corrupted system in order to change it. But it is something we can do. Everyone keeps saying, what can we do, that's a place to start, voting. Being close to a passifist myself I've never thought about the need to have a president who's served in the military. In my mind war should always be the LAST option and I naively assumed that whoever was in office would understand that. As much as I would like to pretend that this exposure to the horrific side of human nature is not a requirement for the commander in chief, I have mislead myself. Would we be in war right now if Bush was a veteran, I don't know...but there seems to be a general disregard for life within the current administration. They pass off their actions as humanitarian, as bringing democracy, peace, and change to the middle east, but more death and destruction has occured on all sides because of this administrations hasty decisions to attack "terrorists". I don't even know who the "terrorists" are anymore...there doesn't seem to be a right or a wrong side to all of this. I know that killing innocents is wrong and both sides are doing that. So who are the terrorists? I really do appreciate the opinions on this thread as they give me more food for thought when deciding what I should do to help create change. I have a lot to learn, and hopefully a little to give. Anyway, that was my moment of thanks...keep going. Dana

Like a smart guy once ( and often )said on this very forum... "FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!"

if your just finding this now thats verry sad you probly should not call your self a left wing extrimist like my self i saw this movie over 8 months ago old news every one knows its a the 911 attacks were finaced and set up by the united states government ferthermore you should probly read some of Noam Chompskys books and howard zinn just to name a few

And YOU should go back to school and learn how to write the English language... Stupid should hurt! BAD!!

LOL!!

"Stupid should hurt" - see Glycolic Tattoo acid thread. While we're on the topic off 9/11, the war on terror, the military, etc... I wish to say a few things then I'm leaving these topics alone. This is a long post. First a quote from John Stuart Mill, "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." Next a piece of my history. I served in the USMC for almost two years. I left with an Other Than Honorable discharge. I'm not proud of the fact that I left this way, but have great respect for the man who caused me to want to leave. He was a constant pain in my ass. He was the company Gunnery Seargent. He brought all the charges against me. There was one false charge that started the whole mess brought by someone else. Everything he did was too try too "inspire" me. He had no idea the original was false.(It was done by someone else but I got accussed) That was why I bucked the system. I wasn't the only one with similar issues in the another friend lost rank because of charges he was exonerated of. Another went through the request mast process to try to get emergency leave to keep his younger brothers and sister from going up to adoption after his mom gave them up. I had seen and had enough. The gunniy's first charge was when I was late for work after oversleeping. Three charges, all valid, Derilection of duty, not being at my assigned duty station, failure to obey a direct order (to show up for a formation that morning). This was the first set of charges he brought against. He thought I was trying to rebel against it. After that, I did. I started showing up late everyday for about a month. The charges piled as fast as he could write them. Even after, my pay, my rank, and my freedom had been taken away, I continued. He tried his best and was a constant thorn in my side. The culmination happened during a battalion run. I fell back in the run on purpose. I'm a damn good runner. I could do 3 miles in under 19 min. He came to the back of the formation and ordered me to the front. I said, "No, sir." This was repeated twice more. Then he grabbed my upper arm and pulled me to the front. I said, "Let go" over and over multiple times, but he was undeterred. At the front of the formation. I screamed it and the whole formation looked at the scene I created. I then physically pulled away, out of formation and went back to my barracks. Afterward, I brought an assualt charge against him. I had nothing to lose, he did. I wrote a letter to my congressman. I didn't mention anything about me or him. I told the congressman about the friend who lost rank, and the one who couldn't get home. I wanted a change. 3 days later at my NJP (Non-judical punsihment) trial. There were going to hold mine then his. Mine was originally scheduled two weeks later, but after the congressman call the base General it was bumped up. I didn't know the changes that were going to happen. The Gunny offered to drop all his charges if I would drop mine. I agreed and was given given the option to forgo any punishment or leave the military. After what I'd seen about the way the military treated it's own, even when unlike myself they were outstanding marines, I chose to leave. I dropped the charge on the gunny not because he dropped his, it was because even though I had nothing to lose his career which also fed his wife and daughter would have been destroyed. I couldn't do that over a situation a created. Also in the process I gained a great respect for him. Like me he was willing to try do all he could to help someone else. My two friends: one got a permanent transfer home and left on same flight I did 4 days later.(Charged processed and out in 1 week, normally it takes 3+). The other had his record expunged and and his rank restored. I'm only telling you this because in the early months of the Iraq war we lost him as a then Master Seargent. As long as there are men like that in our military there is hope for it. Second a friend I was in NJROTC with also was changed by the war he caught schrapnel in the leg as well as a bullet in an ambush. He lives but was for ever changed, not in a good way. Finally, my best friend, a drop out w/ a GED and a bad home life. Changed his life and was moving froward also went to Iraq. He left the military on a medical discharge (becuase of a genetic disease, he'll be blind by 35). After he had done so much to change his life a combination of his problems and experience has brought him done a bad path but I'm still hopeful. We no longer speak and his family disowned him. I'm most ashamed here. There was a moment I could have help and because of the girl he is with I turned him away. This was has caused me to completely lose a man I respected and destroyed two of my good friends. I still support the military and the decision to go to war. Why? I have faith that our Commander in Chief and every other president in history would not put the Fathers, Mothers, Sons and Daughters in combat if they didn't believe it absolutely necessary and would not make the decision lightly. I truely believe Bush did what he thought was right and believe congress acted the same. We started a job. We should finish it. I would say the same no matter whether the president was Republican, Democrat or Independant. I voted for both Clinton and Bush based on their campaign platforms. Also to say 9/11 is a conspiracy. That guy should be shot for treason. Just as Jefferson once did on the White House lawn, but we have freedom of press which is still being protected by better men than him. This is dedicated to my Gunny (Rest in peace friend the world is better for your family and all of us because of you.) and to my friends to which the war still brings pain.

One last note... for those that what to look at both sides of the issue... http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html Read it all... If you still think this is a conspiracy, so be it nothing will change your minds.

Thanks Kaez!

Shot for treason because the man is bringing up subjects that should be closely scrutunized? Ludicrous at best!...I choose to not blindly believe ANYTHING...not even our government Sheeple are just sooo funny!!

You know, none of this would even be brought up if our government was trustworthy. That alone should be enough to question the whole thing. I think we are getting things a little mixed up. Disagreeing with your government does not mean you disagree with your country, as your government is not your country, especially when we are talking about the bush administration. This animosity that is being shown towards anyone who questions our government is rather saddening. The ability to bring so many differing opinions together peacefully and contributing each individual's strengths is what has allowed this country to be so great. I agree, it is very hard to tell who the enemy really is right now, but I do know that it is not my fellow american. We WERE the united states of america. Right now I would be bold enough to call us the divided states, as we can't seem to agree on anything. Half of us are too busy squabling over being democratic or republican, left wing/right wing, and the other half just doesn't care. (just generalizations, don't give me specifics please). The media has us pretty good and distracted, while our government has us pretty easily divided. It has been asked what it is that we can do. I think the first task at hand is to reunite the people. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm of the opinion that it is the people who own this country. We keep it running. It's our people fighting overseas, it's our people working the factories, the farms, ect. But we don't have any power while we are so divided. So I think we can all agree that /something/ is wrong with this country right now (at least I hope we can agree on that). I believe we can fix it. But we have to put our differences aside and just get this shit done. Maybe 9/11 was a cover up, maybe it wasn't. It took 9/11 for the majority to even think something was wrong, but were we not having these same problems before 9/11? Well...much more that I say beyond this is going to be random jibberish, so I'll just wrap it up for now.

We Americans...and I include myself...have had it so good for so long that we are a bunch of terribly spoiled complacent brats... But now its time... Time to start appreciating what we haveand just how good we do have it. Time to initiate change, to reach back into the past and think about what we represented then and compare that to now. Or we can just let ol GDubbya take care of things!!!

hey guys and girls...sorry I've been away but I'm back... up and running again.... Taz..first I want to thank you for showing me the video...up until that I have heard people say it was the government but since they offered no proof I just blew it off as heresy... The funny thing about people who DONT think it was a conspiracy is that they just insult the creators of the film and dont offer any scientific evidence proving these three gentleman wrong... Another funny thing is that they almost always say that we who believe in this are shitting on the graves of the victims... So I ask this.... If you believe everything the government tells you about 9/11, even though there is scientific evidence proving the governments theory wrong, or at least questionable, wouldnt that mean that YOU are shitting on the victims graves simply by not looking at every angle of the official story ???.. It's called being passive... I now ask this... just looking at the twin towers for now, how is it possible that two towers, same height, same width, same foundation, same material both were hit in two completely different areas of the building (one was hit higher up and more towards the center and the other was hit a little lower more towards a corner)how could they both fall the EXACT SAME way and in the exact same amount of seconds...It is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE that if these two buildings were hit in two different areas that they would fall the EXACT SAME...which they did... It is extremely questionable....it goes against the laws of physics...and as we all know nothing...NOTHING can break the laws of physics.... And if you look at the footage you should notice that the bottom floors offered absolutely NO resistance....Somewhere mid building the bottom sections would have supported the top sections falling...at least offered enough resistance to where the top half would have toppled over or they would have slowed down the collapse....but instead the buildings fell pefectly straight down at a very fast pace..... Not to mention building number 7 which fell exactly the same way... These are factors that aren't being taken into consideration and it just goes to show the passiveness.... See, when we view the towers on television they look a lot smaller then they are in person.. the twin towers were a block long each.....A BLOCK LONG....it's fishy that a plane could bring down ONE building that is a block long let alone TWO...and have them both collapse in the EXACT SAME MANNER at the EXACT SAME SPEED when they were both hit in completely different locations... I need to shut up now.....

Ok Ok!!! I'm tired of this crap!! I can't take it anymore! I DID IT!!!!

Legacy check your e-mail and tell me if the TAzfest poster came through!

I knew it. Taz must be a psuedonym of osama...yeah, that's it. Now he's trying to turn us against our government...hahahaha Jeremy

DAMMITT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ya got me man!! I give up!

The link I posted on my addendum to my long post is the scientific evidence to rebuke to video. Does the government. Hell, yes! Might they have lied about some things aobut 9/11. Most likely (it cover a lot of material) 99/100 The government lies to cover it's ass(Clinton for an easy example) or to hide something in the public intrest (maybe there's alien bodies at Area 51, don't know, don't care)... but I have faith when our government goes to war near unanimously. If we were fooled then so was at least half of our federal government. P.S. TAZ... We make the party if we can (me and my wife.)

go here.... www.scholarsfor911truth.org Keaz...went to the site you mentioned...interesting but definately NOT "scientific proof"...just more conjecture!

A favorite bumper sticker I saw again recently.... Trust the government... ask an indian!

Already have... well at least half of one... my wife is 3/8 apache... and an 1/8 something else... Yup, her grandfather grew up on a resevation... From what she said he hated the government... but they got there revenge on us white folk... casinos... no they can legally steal our money

The link that Keaz posted might be more conjecture, but quite frankly I think it made a lot more sense than the video. There are a lot of flaws in the video. I agree 100% that our government lies to us, but I'm not so sure about this 9/11 thing being a government conspiracy...especially based off of one video. Someone might say to me, well maybe you should do more research...and maybe they're right. But I think I've decided for myself that there are a lot of things in life that can never be explained, I'm going to leave 9/11 as one of those things. I choose to instead spend my energy in creating an open discussion about the state of the world with the people I encounter. The only way to re-unite the people of this country is through tolerance, talk, and action. I plan on trying to understand others views, telling them my own...hopefully with an open mind...and taking any action I can to better this country. Making this country better does not only lay in politics, but in taking care of the environment, and providing GOOD healthcare for everyone (including mental health) just to name a couple. These are all things that I KNOW I can make a difference in and that's where my energy is going for now. Dana

http://www.publicscrutiny.net/2003/ps-connect911&iraq.htm I just saw this link and thought it was interesting...it is a short article talking about tattooing, 9/11, Iraq, and Vietnam. It's not very detailed and I think was written in 2002, but interesting nontheless. Dana

Founding Patriot Samuel Adams noted, "It does not take a majority to prevail...but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." That should describe you! I read this on the Bob Montagna thread and thought it would fit hear as well.

That should describe us all...any of us who give a shit anyway!

And then Sam Adams created his own beer, and quenched the fires and resolve of the irate...........................

... Gawd! You smart ass!