conventions vs hotelrooms etc

Allright folks lets open THIS can o maggots... How about the pros and cons of so called "scratchers tattooing in hotel rooms and so called"pros tattooing at conventions?(and sometimes tattoing IN hotel rooms AT conventions...Happens all the time! and you pros KNOW it!!!) And is it hippocritical for "pros" to continually throw out the term"scratcher" at people who are doin the same damn thing the pros are doin? Lets hear from ya guys...Erlich, Crockett, Skittlez,Caribou, Kandyman Joe (my personal hero!)...Keepinitreal (old muthafuka), Legacy (young muthafuka)...And yeah we will even let Gabe put in his two cents! And anybody else with a valid opinion.Oh yeah...the scottish TAzette too can't forget her and Mamacat Lets get this argument started!!!...TAz the trouble maker

What if im tattooing in my hotel room, wearing surgical scrubs, a rebreather and barrier film on everthing ........and inside a hyperbaric oxygen chamber? Then in my shop wearing a chicken costume ,while mainlining heroin..without gloves....and getting a blowjob from my clients wife.

Man I wanna gett tattooed at YOUR shoP!!!!LMAO!!

OK. Since you cannot control the atmosphere at a convention, I would say that is the worst offender. The second would be the hotel/motel room. It is not an ideal setup, but someone who REALLY REALLY knows their shit could do it safely if NECESSARY...however anyone who REALLY REALLY knows their shit would NOT regularly do so, because they would also understand the flaws and added risk factor. Only a studio, seperate and apart from all living space, could be controlled appropriately. period.

To me, the term scratcher is more a philosophy (fuck it, I dont need to learn from anyone, I can learn by trial and error on my friends and stupid people and all the haterz are just worried about the coin) than a set of actions(in a hotel room, at home, etc). That is, professionals can tattoo safely at their studio, at a convention, in a hotel room, and, in fact, in their home. Scratchers cant tattoo safely anywhere. Its the job of the client to learn enough about tattooing to find a talented safe tattoo artist no matter where they tattoo. With very very very very few exceptions (and I stress VERY), getting tattooed out of someones home/house party is a BAD idea. As with anything in life, there are exceptions, but VERY few.

A scratcher to me would be also defined as a hack in any industry. Someone with an ounce of knowledge, mail order ink and a machine. If a professional (i.e. SOMEONE who has PAID their dues while learning the ropes) has learned their trade then tattooing in their hotel room while doing a convention would not bother me. This is also said with the understanding that they follow sterile protocol. Now, how they achieve that sterile work environment would have to be debated amongst the pros here. I understand needles can be brand new as, of course gloves, but what actually goes in the autoclave? That's my question.

Gabe you are a wise man. like a super yoda.

Don't encourage him Mortis...

DAMIT taz you forgot me. well i agree with gabe it all deponds on the artist. look at mike roper he is tattooing at home, and ron white from south carolina shit he tattooed at home til he finally got the bill passed to leagleize tattooing in SC, and he was very clean and safe. so it all depends on the artist but i wouldn't let just anyone tattoo me in a hotel room or convention, or at thier house.

Ha! Im not saying anything that someone hasnt already said to me...

alright alright alright i thought i learned my dam lesson after the last time we had a discussion about "scratchers" vs"pros" ..... I never used the word scratcher until this forum so correct me if I'm wrong....please...but what I have gathered is that a scratcher is someone who engages in the tattoo process as an amateur in every corner...The work fades, the lines arent clean, the color isn't filled in nicely like it should be and is dull, and of course the artist doesnt give a shit about health issues...however, seeing as everyone looks at a piece of art differently who is anyone to say that just because the color is a little faded or the tattoo isnt that appealing to us that it is not a piece of art? So if thats the case, then what it all boils down to is that all a "scratcher" is is a tattoo artist that doesnt follow proper safety procedures. Now with that being said, again in my opinion, it is possible to have a tattoo convention filled with scratchers who claim to be pros if the proper safety precautions are NOT being followed. And on the other hand it is very possible to have an artist in a hotel room do very professional and clean work as long as he or she follows those same precautions...

OK it seems like we all agree on some things and we are gettin just a bit closer to reality....working from your home does not automatically brand you as a "scratcher"( I have an intense dislike for that term) and by the same token, working in a shop does not automatically turn you into a "professional ( I am starting to have problems with that term!).. .Lets examine this a bit closer...for instance...take a hotel room...carpeted,full of furniture covered in porous material (with God knows what kind of filth laying in wait to contaminate anything that touches it) only marginally cleaned by staff and management that could care less about how clean it IS only how clean it LOOKS.Taking into account just how many people have used that room for any kind of nasty activities you can imagine, I have a hard time even sleeping in a hotel room let alone performing an invasive proceedure in one.Now don't think I am bein a hippocrite either...I did conventions for years and I tattooed in hotel rooms ...but I always took extra care to sanitize what I could and I covered with plastic drops cloths what I could not (furniture,walls and floor!). But even those precautions just were not enough, not for me...so I stopped doing it altogether. Another issue for me was the alcohol consumption which seemed to be a prerequisie at tattoo conventions and again don't think I', a tea totalling milktoast...I love my Crown Royal just as much as the next guy!).When we did the Artistry in Ink tour a few years ago with Gil Montie ,Randy Adams and Jack Armstrong with Billy Tinney and the Easyriders folks I hate to even say it but a good portion ( a very LARGE portion sorrowfully enough) of the "professional" and even famous tattoo artists working were totally blitzed.I'm not talking about the people who came for tattoos...I'm talking about the TATTOO ARTISTS WHO WERE WORKING ON PEOPLE!!! I saw one very well known tattoo artist stop tattooing,fall out of his chair and proceed to puke all over his cubicle!!...I ain't makin this up folks...IT REALLY HAPPENED! Had I been runnin the show this guy would have been removed from the convention and permanently barred from involvement with any other conventon put on by that firm. But ,alas, he was picked up,another Jack and Coke put in his hand and in a few minutes HE WAS TATTOOING AGAIN!..I don't know who I despised more him or the idiot who sat there and let him keep tattooing on him...To me...THAT is a scratcher! Its all a matter of professionalism kids...no one should be tattooed if they are drunk...no tattoo artist should tattoo if HE?SHE is drunk but it happens. That goes for drugs too obviously. OK folks thats all on this one ...SEE YA!!...TAz

Lets try it a different way. You would all agree that a brilliant surgeon who really knows his shit could perform brain surgery in a pif sty...right? But WOULD YOU GO TO ONE who insists on working in a pig sty? I wouldn't. Because if he insisted on working there, he isn't quite as brilliant as he might outwardly seem. Sometimes eccentric doesn't equal brilliance. It doesn't matter who is in question.

Legacy, theres no question about whether scratchers put out art or not. They do. Most of the time its bad art. Who decides if the art is good or not? the client, and everyone who looks at it. Ultimately, the client is the one to decide what art is good enough for their body. The more educated the client, the better the art they will get tattooed on their body.

Also, if the ink is faded and the tattoo wasnt applied well, then by definition its a bad tattoo, though, not necessarily bad art. Professional tattoo artists that look at and apply tattoos all day long can tell at a glance, tattoo fans can if they spend a lot of time researching and looking at tattoos. I had a great eagle tattooed on my shoulder out of someones kitchen 10 years ago. The tattoo looked GREAT for a few months (I had found the best artist in the area I could). You can still tell how it could be a great tattoo, but alas its so faded that it just kinda sucks. Luckily Ive grown and when I get it lasered and covered in a few years it will be with a design thats a little more me and timeless. So, from my personal experience with the kitchen magician, I should have waited till the guy had been tattooing longer. The birds he did on my arm a few years later out of his successful professional studio are still brilliant and pretty damn bright 10 years later.

ack, eagle must be like 12 - 13 years ago.

shit, give those years a margin of error of 1 year. I got em like 2-3 years apart if the important part... The artist sure learned a lot in those years!

so wait....I dont think that everyone has the same opinion of what a good tattoo is.. a tattoo I think is ugly you might think is good and vise versa. which brings me back to the fact that if everyone views art in a different way then the only thing that separates a scratcher from a pro is the safety measures. In this country we have a problem with labeling. We all want to fit into a specific category. i.e. "pro". Not saying that is stupid to have goals but we categorize entirely too much not realizing that the person we are labeling only fits this label in the persons opinion who is doing the labeling. Someone else might see this person under a different label so who's to say who's right and who's wrong? The fact is that if you get a bad tattoo it is only PARTIALLY the tattoo artists fault but the majority of the blame goes to the individual getting the tattoo for not researching the artist and his/her work. Its just not enough to look at pictures any more and say oh he does good work. Pictures can be decieving,especially nowadays with computers and enhancement software, so you must must must SEE in person tattoos that this artist has done . One more thing I MUST add is (and please just hear me out) the MAIN reason people go to a "scratcher" for a tattoo is because they cant afford to get one in a shop.The shops are charging entirely too much money for a little ass tattoo that will take a half hour to do, or they wont tattoo people under the age of 18. not too mention most shops have arrogant snobs doing the work(no offense to you kind hearted, humble artists out there who treat clients with respect and dignity) I guarantee that even if you were to only charge a little less then you are now more people would come to you and the "scratchers" wouldnt have anyone going to them for tatts.

I think there is a lot more to being "professional" than just safety, and while art is most certianly subjective, Im pretty sure we can agree that there are plenty of bad tattoos where the quality of the art and execution is not arguable. those tattoos may have been done in a safe environment, but I wouldnt be so PC as to call them professionally done. Here is the wikipedia definition of professional. It seems like we might have to fight pretty hard just calling an accomplished tattoo artist professional, I dont think we are going to get away calling kitchen magicians professionals even if they are safe. Your right though, while the blame is shared, it ultimately rests on the shoulders of the client. No one is forcing them to get a bad tattoo, they are really doing it to themselves. Your also right that people who get inferior work often are price shopping, looking for a cheaper price. The solution isnt for professionals to de-value their work and go down in price, the solution is to educate the customer so they realize that saving $200 now will cost them $500 in the future if they want to fix their mistakes. That is, you probably shouldnt be finding the cheapest tattoo you can, you should probably be investing as much as you can in them. Again, please dont get mad at me for my opinion, everyones entitled to theirs and yours is just as valid as mine and blah blah blah.

**the MAIN reason people go to a "scratcher" for a tattoo is because they cant afford to get one in a shop.The shops are charging entirely too much money for a little ass tattoo that will take a half hour to do,** When you take into consideration that I personally and painstakingly make all my own needles to very high standards, using only the finest materials I can find after much research and experimentation, all the disposables, which aren't cheap to keep you from catching a desease, the expense of spore testing an autoclave every two weeks, and the countless hours of time I have put into the tattoo before you even walked through the fucking door, you might begin to understand why your statement is not only goddamn STUPID, but also goddamn OFFENSIVE. That half hour tattoo takes just as much materials as a big tattoo, aside from a few less drops of ink.

keep sorry dude i meant no offense brother I was just stating that that is the main reason why people go to "scratchers"...Ask anyone who went to a scratcher to get a tatt why they went to someone outside of a shop and guaranteed they will tell you cause shops are too expensive.....Bottom line.and I understand that you make your own needles and I admire you for that but you are one of the VERY few who still do that....so to figure that into the price is wrong because its YOUR decision to waste your time making needles and the client shouldnt have to pay for that. Now lets say a client comes in and they pick a teenie tiny rose off of the wall. You mean to tell me that you put a countless amount of work into that tattoo? come on man be serious how much effort does it take you to make a stencil of a one and a half inch rose and then tattoo it? And your gonna charge 85 bucks for it...Again this is why people go to scratchers.......

**....so to figure that into the price is wrong because its YOUR decision to waste your time making needles and the client shouldnt have to pay for that. ** Are you insane??? You do not think my decision to NOT use absolute junk being cranked out by children in sweatshops who have never done a tattoo in their lives is worthless to the client??? Are you serious?? That quality and time that I put into my work is worth nothing to you? Well, I think we just found our answer to what seperates a scratcher from a pro. All the time and elements I put into the tattoo are what creates the outcome. If the outcome is of higher quality then it is worth more. I suppose you feel you shouldn't pay extra for filet minon...it's just meat, after all.

come on keep you mean to tell me cats like nikko make their own needles. even if they do that doesnt mean the tattoo is gonna magically come out better. How on earth are you gonna charge someone more money cause YOU decide to take the long way. If I go to a friggin dentist and the motherfucker tries to overcharge me for a filling and then turns around and says hey well i made my own drill cap so i gotta figure that into the price I'm gonna say fuck off and i'll go find another dentist. And I think a lot of truly great artists who buy needles premade would take offense to being called a scratcher just because they are up to date...Every shop I've ever been in uses the same dam needles I use and they STILL overcharge for a tattoo.

In the same exact logic, you feel a 5 star restaraunt should charge just as much as McDonalds, because if they want to "waste their time" preparing gourmet food, instead of slapping frozen patties on a grill, they shouldn't pass that expense off to their customers?

""In the same exact logic, you feel a 5 star restaraunt should charge just as much as McDonalds, because if they want to "waste their time" preparing gourmet food, instead of slapping frozen patties on a grill, they shouldn't pass that expense off to their customers?""" thats a cheap shot and you know it...the 5 star restaurant doesnt make their own meat they buy it......and probably pay a lot more than you pay for some needles and bars and solder buddy...

There is no oriental sweatshop being run by a non-tattooing profitteer that makes good needles. They simply make CHEAP needles. Needles make a world of difference in the outcome of a tattoo...at least as much as any other factor. Some needles are designed to push the maximum amount of pigment into the skin, saturating it with as little trauma as possible. And if you pull your head out of your ass, DO YOU USE LESS MATERIALS FOR A SMALL TATTOO THAN YOU DO A LARGE ONE? Do you not need barriers? Sterilizer bags? etc? The only difference is time. You must cover the cost of your materials and time to prepare...unless you are into charity tattooing.

If you seriously think all needles are the same and put out the same exact results, then you must be very new to the business. And if you seriously do not see how chosing to use quality components not available from a sweatshop at discount prices is worth more, then as I said above...we have come to a conclusion as to the difference between a scratcher and a pro.

OH Legacy dude! And I thought you were a for real tattoo artist...man you had me fooled....Now I gotta shine you on man... I cannot believe the shit you are posting....Saddddddd!!!...TAz

look...keep.......i dont know how or why you decided to take my statement out of context like that. maybe its just something you like to do to find a way to throw in little tid bits about how you make your own needles and machines etc. etc..maybe you enjoy starting arguements...who knows...If you look back to the initial statement i made I was only ONLY ONLY ONLY giving a reason of WHY people go to scratchers. I think it was something like"the main reason people go to scratchers is because the shops are charging entirely too much money" Thats it. then you turned around and said that my statement was STUPID without giving me any more of an explanation as to why other than oh i make my own needles. People keep asking how people could be so stupid as to go to a scratcher and get a tatt. I was simply giving a logical and common answer to that question.

What I take offense to is your premise that I am taking the "long way" around it, and it's my decision to "waste my time" making needles when I can buy junk. Half the tattoo industry is running around like chickens with their heads cut off looking for this special ink which doesn't exist, because they can't drive ink in....they think the ink sucks. But it's likely the junk needles the little Chinese kids who never tattooed are pumping out that aren't capable of driving ink in the skin efficiently. They use whatever they can get that is cheap junk so they can pass the "savings" off to you. Then they huck you out of mopre making "special inks" that their garbage is capable of "somewhat" pushing in. No thanks! I will continue to use well made needles, that aren't uneven and hooked and are designed to put tattoo ink into skin...any brand of tattoo ink. And since no Chinese kid is making those for me, I will have to make them myself. So that I do not scar and butcher up my clients unnecessarily. And I will charge more for that. And the intelligent folks out there will PAY the extra price and gladly pick up the cost. As will all the scarred and butchered up people who finally see what a tattoo is supposed to look like and want their "bargain bin" tattoo reworked. And in the end I will sleep better knowing I did not support some profiteer and cheat my clients just to undercut the local asshole kitchen magician. THAT is the MEANINGFUL difference between a pro and a scratcher. But the rest of the world can do whatever they see fit. The proof will be in the pudding when we see who survives after the fad wears off. I do not consider it a waste of my time to provide the best possible elements to my clients, nor do I feel I am overcharging them for doing so.

right and much respect for that response....The whole me saying you were wasting youre time was after i took offense to you saying that my comment was stupid and a few other things that you said so it was in part out of anger I admit that and apologize for that and if you read back to when you and i first engaged in this conversation you'll see that one of the first things i said was that I admire you and respect you for making your own needles.... I dont know it got carried away sorry dude....

Well, alrighty, then. Show is over kids. Back to your regularly scheduled cartoons.

OK, now that everyone has shook hands... In a way I admire the people who refrain from using the term "scratcher" The problem with the 'term', as it stands, IMO is that you get 10 "pros" in a room and ask "What is a scratcher" unless something coersive is going on, you'll get about 8.5 different answers. True,They usually share some common elements like lack of adequate BBP & CC precautions/training, poor technique/quality of work, lack of respect/patience, but when you start examining closer the specifics, definitions start diverging more. I've said it before elswhere, but in the tattoo community, accusing someone of being a scratcher is about as heavy as accusing someone of being a rapist. People get beaten down, spat on, and shunned, often times the term and resulting treatment gets doled out just on an unfounded suspicion that someone is a scratcher. I myself have been the victim of false accusations of this type so it is a sore issue for me. (on an aside, I figure if I am not pushing ink into live skin I am pretty much clear of the offence.) I'm not saying the term should not exist, I'm just saying that a term this heavy deserves an objective definition, one that stands up under examination. If you have no clear definition for scratcher then by consequence you are left with no clear definition of what a "pro" is. makes it a bit more complicated for someone who wants to enter the profession the right way and with respect. It used to be that the standard line was "get an apprenticeship". The apprenticeship thing still stands, but now due to the rapid expansion of the industry it is more important for an apprenticeship seeker to be 'pre-educated' one cannot just assume that because the tattooing is happening out of a commercial storefront that ones 'mentor' is qualified to apprentice someone, let alone tattoo period... but part of the pre-education that an apprenticeship seeker needs these days is a clear definition of the term scratcher. I' rather have gotten a "pre-made" from the "pros" out there, but I have, by necessity, had to make my own.

I love chinese needles. And Microprocessors.

I love Chinese needles with garlic sauce and wonton soup!

This is where Carlos Mencia would say something about little pricks. Comedy Central has offically rotted my brain.