Curious

Hi, I've been here reading the posts for about six months now and I've noticed a few things and was wondering if anyone could answer them for me. I can draw, in fact I do it for a living. But have no plans to put it under anyone's skin. I have several tattoos but that's the extent of my knowledge. So if these are silly questions, please don't take it personally. #1 Michigan is a non-license state. So does that mean that one wouldn't have to have the fabled "apprenticeship" that everyone talks about? Could someone legally have an apprentice if he doesn't have a license? #2 What does one learn as an apprentice? Is it just to learn the "tricks of the trade" for lack of a better term, or does the trainer delve into the medical issues as well? If so, what kind of medical training certificates should I look for in a trainer? #3 Everyone seems to be saying that these "kits" are a rip off and are junk and then say you should go to a good tattoo supply dealer to get your stuff. Yet they all seem to sell kits? Does this make them bad dealers since they are selling the kits that are supposed to be no good for the industry and if so, why recommend them if they are doing this?? #4 If the option of buying a kit is taken away, what should a person buy if they want to start tattooing for a living? Aren't the kits just an assembled version of the same stuff you would normally buy to start tattooing? Again, none of these questions are meant to offend, and my only interest here is to come and read all the drama that goes on. So PLEASE don't read it as if I'm attacking anyone or being a smartass. I am just curious.

#1 You should be apprenticed in a shop that has both a business license and has a physician looking over said shop. #2 You should look to the red cross for proper training in BBP, First Aid and CPR. HOWEVER, your mentor will know best how to train you in a way that's best suited for tattooing and working in a shop. As an apprentice, you can expect to learn about the medical, artistic and technical parts of tattooing. You really need all the help you can get. #3 Kits are bad because they never come with all that you need. Including but not limited to cross contamination and barrier items that are crucial in tattooing. #4 NO! Kits will tell you what you need to tattoo, NOT what you need to remain clean and prevent cross contamination. Hope that helps. Good Luck!

Hi Gina, Thank you for the answers. I appreciate the openness without the "Go get an apprenticeship moron.". There is a lot of harsh words that fly around here. LOL "#1 You should be apprenticed in a shop that has both a business license and has a physician looking over said shop." An interesting reply here. I can honestly say that I've never been to a shop here in Michigan that had a physician looking over it. Granted I haven't been to ever shop in the state. But I've been in most of the shops that I call "production line" shops. And I do agree with the business license. I would not go anywhere that wasn't registered as a legitimate business. At least I wouldn't these days. I did in my youth though. " #2 You should look to the red cross for proper training in BBP, First Aid and CPR. HOWEVER, your mentor will know best how to train you in a way that's best suited for tattooing and working in a shop." I think I get what your trying to say here. But I think I also disagree with you on it. I don't think that training for BBP for tattooing, or CPR would be any different than you would learn at your local community college. I'm not saying that a mentor couldn't inform you in those things as about anyone that's had a class could do that. But I think CPR is CPR regardless of where it's at. Am I wrong here? I would think a tattoo shop would be no different than any other place that is handling invasive procedures? "As an apprentice, you can expect to learn about the medical, artistic and technical parts of tattooing. You really need all the help you can get." This is also one that I tend to disagree with. I would NOT trust a tattoo artist regardless of how good he or she is to give me "medical" training. Again, not saying that your average artist COULDN'T advise on it. But to actually conduct a training session on Blood Born Pathogens is a bit narcissistic. As far as artistic sides of it are concerned, I don't think you can teach someone how to draw. But I do believe that someone can show you different techniques and share ideas to make you a better artist. So artistic and technical I have to give you. =) "#3 Kits are bad because they never come with all that you need. Including but not limited to cross contamination and barrier items that are crucial in tattooing." Again, I've haven't been to EVERY shop. But every one I've ever been to at BEST stuck some Saran Wrap on the light to keep from touching it. Granted that's slightly understated. But what "barrier" items are so crucial that you couldn't pick it up at the local Kroger or order it in addition to the kit? "#4 NO! Kits will tell you what you need to tattoo, NOT what you need to remain clean and prevent cross contamination. " So here we've slammed kits and then somewhat praised them all in the same reply. I think what I'm getting from this is that you need to do an internship to have someone point out what SHOULD be obvious, and to prevent having to take a class at the local Red Cross. So with all of this being said, would it be safe to say that if a person had artistic talent, took some classes at the community college, bought a kit, and then practiced his or her butt off on practice skins for a few months they could skip being apprenticed? Personally if I WERE looking to be trained to give tattoos I would rather someone teach me things like what to do if you DO screw up a little and how to fix those mistakes. Or how to test peoples reactions to certain inks. Or why some inks take to some people and yet others don't. Again, I'm not meaning to be disrespectful to any of the artist here because I LOVE tattoos and would be scared sh*tless to ever think of trying to give one to someone. So my hat is off to ANYONE that has the guts to put themselves under that kind of stress, and I have even more respect for those who try to do it properly. But I just don't understand all of the "We have to teach you medical stuff" approach. To me it comes off like everyone is on a high horse, and the first thing I think of is that it's a case of someone thinking that they can teach someone to be a mechanic because they know how to pump gas. "Hope that helps. Good Luck!" It ALWAYS helps to sit back and discuss things like reasonable adults without name calling and such. I think it gives people a more honest impression on why they SHOULD seek out a mentor. And for the record, I do think that everyone should seek one out. Just for different reasons than most people list here. Thank you

Hi Gina, Thank you for the answers. I appreciate the openness without the "Go get an apprenticeship moron.". There is a lot of harsh words that fly around here. LOL "#1 You should be apprenticed in a shop that has both a business license and has a physician looking over said shop." An interesting reply here. I can honestly say that I've never been to a shop here in Michigan that had a physician looking over it. Granted I haven't been to every shop in the state. But I've been in most of the shops that I call "production line" shops. And I do agree with the business license. I would not go anywhere that wasn't registered as a legitimate business. At least I wouldn't these days. I did in my youth though. " #2 You should look to the red cross for proper training in BBP, First Aid and CPR. HOWEVER, your mentor will know best how to train you in a way that's best suited for tattooing and working in a shop." I think I get what your trying to say here. But I think I also disagree with you on it. I don't think that training for BBP for tattooing, or CPR would be any different than you would learn at your local community college. I'm not saying that a mentor couldn't inform you in those things as about anyone that's had a class could do that. But I think CPR is CPR regardless of where it's at. Am I wrong here? I would think a tattoo shop would be no different than any other place that is handling invasive procedures? "As an apprentice, you can expect to learn about the medical, artistic and technical parts of tattooing. You really need all the help you can get." This is also one that I tend to disagree with. I would NOT trust a tattoo artist regardless of how good he or she is to give me "medical" training. Again, not saying that your average artist COULDN'T advise on it. But to actually conduct a training session on Blood Born Pathogens is a bit narcissistic. As far as artistic sides of it are concerned, I don't think you can teach someone how to draw. But I do believe that someone can show you different techniques and share ideas to make you a better artist. So artistic and technical I have to give you. =) "#3 Kits are bad because they never come with all that you need. Including but not limited to cross contamination and barrier items that are crucial in tattooing." Again, I've haven't been to EVERY shop. But every one I've ever been to at BEST stuck some Saran Wrap on the light to keep from touching it. Granted that's slightly understated. But what "barrier" items are so crucial that you couldn't pick it up at the local Kroger or order it in addition to the kit? "#4 NO! Kits will tell you what you need to tattoo, NOT what you need to remain clean and prevent cross contamination. " So here we've slammed kits and then somewhat praised them all in the same reply. I think what I'm getting from this is that you need to do an internship to have someone point out what SHOULD be obvious, and to prevent having to take a class at the local Red Cross. So with all of this being said, would it be safe to say that if a person had artistic talent, took some classes at the community college, bought a kit, and then practiced his or her butt off on practice skins for a few months they could skip being apprenticed? Personally if I WERE looking to be trained to give tattoos I would rather someone teach me things like what to do if you DO screw up a little and how to fix those mistakes. Or how to test peoples reactions to certain inks. Or why some inks take to some people and yet others don't. Again, I'm not meaning to be disrespectful to any of the artist here because I LOVE tattoos and would be scared sh*tless to ever think of trying to give one to someone. So my hat is off to ANYONE that has the guts to put themselves under that kind of stress, and I have even more respect for those who try to do it properly. But I just don't understand all of the "We have to teach you medical stuff" approach. To me it comes off like everyone is on a high horse, and the first thing I think of is that it's a case of someone thinking that they can teach someone to be a mechanic because they know how to pump gas. "Hope that helps. Good Luck!" It ALWAYS helps to sit back and discuss things like reasonable adults without name calling and such. I think it gives people a more honest impression on why they SHOULD seek out a mentor. And for the record, I do think that everyone should seek one out. Just for different reasons than most people list here. Thank you

go get an apprenticeship, moron.

LMAO @ Noz..... Now that's the replies I've come to know and love. =) Would you take me on as an apprentice Noz? How many apprentices do you have on staff right now? Seriously, I don't want to give a tattoo to anyone. Just trying to have some adult conversation regarding the topic. Noz, Why do you feel that kits are a bad thing? Personally I think that a kit is as good as buying a bunch of stuff separately. But I don't really understand the differences in equipment. I only ASSUME that if one were to buy a high quality kit, it would be the same as buying it individually. Kind of like buying an ink set. Why buy each bottle on it's own if you need 6 or 7 of the colors that come with the set?? Do you teach your apprentices medical stuff like BBP, and CPR or do you teach them more of the stuff like how to stay cool under the pressure that I'm SURE comes with marking someone for life? Again, just curious and not trying to be insulting to anyone. Thanks

It seems to me that you are wanting to hear a certaon set of answers, as you seemed to find "valid" reasons to excuse all the answers Gina gave. General BBP is NOT the same, nor nearly as informative on a general level as it would be to take in a tattoo specific class. CPR though, I'd agree is pretty much CPR either way. And kits are shitty because they're low grade, crappy equipment that's thrown together for, with all due respect, people like you that think they're adequate for good tattooing. Hence the reason you find them all over myspace, and ebay, and crappy distributors that no reputable tattoo artist would buy from anyways. I'm not trying to knock on you, and I know these threads can often get a bit rash, however it seems to me you're trying to talk people in this forum into saying, sure what you're saying sounds good, don't bother with an apprenticeship. The fact of the matter is general BBP courses, practice skins, and a pre-made kit will NEVER be an adequate replacement for an apprenticeship, no matter how much you sugar coat it, or make it sound better or worse than it is. It's just not substantial enough. As far as tattoo artists teaching "medical stuff," I'm not sure if anyone here ever claimed tattoo artists would teach you how to do brain surgery, however any well trained tattoo artist is very saavy in the ways of cross contamination, BBP, autoclaving equipment, sharps containment and disposal, etc. You seem like an intelligent person, and obviously don't have your head up your ass, but at the same time, if you want us to say something other than an apprenticeship is best, its not gonna happen.

i don't have an apprentice at this time. but i'd be happy to teach anyone to knit.

"Noz, Why do you feel that kits are a bad thing? Personally I think that a kit is as good as buying a bunch of stuff separately. But I don't really understand the differences in equipment. I only ASSUME that if one were to buy a high quality kit, it would be the same as buying it individually. Kind of like buying an ink set. Why buy each bottle on it's own if you need 6 or 7 of the colors that come with the set??" "Do you teach your apprentices medical stuff like BBP, and CPR or do you teach them more of the stuff like how to stay cool under the pressure that I'm SURE comes with marking someone for life?" i have yet to see a high quality kit.. i've seen alot. many kits come with useless supplies like flat needle groupings, and single needles. the come with an insufficient supply of ink, often in 1/2 oz bottles. the ink is often poor quality, not always, but often. the machines are usually junk. large kits that come with autoclaves are always the shitty american ones you need to babysit, instead of a self contained unit. don't get me started on the powersupplies these outfits come with. despite the attempts of pros to keep scratchers out of the loop, there will always be douchebags like aitchison to fill in the blanks, therefore it is easy to find out what the pros are using in terms of machines, power, etc. buy that shit and forget about kits. as for teaching an apprentice about bbp and cc, i require them to do the course, . imo the test is far too easy, so i also ask them to complete a test of my creation, both written and practical. as for teaching them about grace under pressure, i put as much pressure on them as i can. if the can't handle it, tattooing is not for them.

Hi Mary, I certainly would not want anyone to say something that they didn't believe is true. And frankly, I believe that if one is available everyone should learn their trade under mentorship regardless of what that trade might be. Just from my readings here, I believe that everyone has become so defensive of the art (and I don't blame them) that they are just tossing any excuse out that they can to keep from telling the truth. No insult to anyone, but the BBP class I took was taught by an actual medical resident. I'm not sure if every class is taught by one, but mine was. And your going to sit and tell me that your average tattoo artist is going to to a better job teaching it? I'm sorry but I just don't buy that. And let's face this fact. We are talking about the AVERAGE tattoo artist, or tattooist. Most of the ones in my area started out scratching at the kitchen table and rented a building or a booth at a flea market. I also understand that there are people who give tattoo's and artists who use skin as their medium. But in some area's, the latter barely exists. The AVERAGE tattooist is going to be a person who does 98% of their work from flash, or modified flash and I would be willing to bet that 90% of them started as what you guys call "kitchen magicians". There is also a large percentage of tattooists that started out as scratchers and added some shading and now get the elitist feeling that they are "artist". I think the people here fall back on BBP, or kit's are crappy because they don't want to touch on the things that an apprenticeship should really be for. What that is, I really don't know. But I'm reasonably sure that it's not JUST for the BBP, or the CC training. Because if that was the case you would say, go to your local community college, take these classes and have at it. On the kits, I don't doubt anything from ebay or the like is crap. But I've done some looking around and nearly every supply shop that's mentioned by the community here sells SOME form of kit. So maybe instead of telling someone that "kit's are crap" you need to tell them that Pulse has a good entry level machine that it would be good to start an apprenticeship with. Or a specific entry level power supply, or even something as simple as "I wouldn't buy a machine that cost under a hundred dollars because I wouldn't trust the quality" would be better than saying "go to for needles and have a person see their great $199.99 kit there. Hell, you said I could buy my needles there, why not a whole kit?? At least that's the impression I get left with. I do understand that there are hundreds of people that come here and say "I just bought my kit off ebay and did this crappy tattoo, what do you think?" But maybe if people here were not quite so dismissive of all the people when they ask something like "What's a good entry level machine" we would have a whole lot less people giving crappy tattoo's to people? Now, onto Noz..... Noz, I have to say that I am legitimately impressed by your second reply. I ASSUMED you were just here to add the "shut up Moron" factor to the forum. But that reply was civil, well thought out and not abusive. I really appreciate the "abuse" comments. THAT is what I see an apprenticeship as being. Personally, I don't mind a "flash artist" marking me up. But I have some VERY bad ink on my back from a person who was normally talented but had no clue as to what to do once a small mistake was made and screwed up my ink then ran out the door. I come here and I have no desire to tattoo someone. I'm to big a sissy to do it frankly. But I WANT to hear that the GOOD tattoo artists are teaching people what to do when something goes wrong. I don't want to hear that your teaching them to wrap your light with plastic wrap. Yes, it's important but not NEARLY as important to me as hearing that you teach people under pressure and how to react under that pressure. So kudo's to you for putting them under pressure! I actually appreciate that. Again, I understand that there are things that everyone here can teach other people. And I understand that it shouldn't be given here as "free" help that you can't monitor. But does it REALLY hurt to tell someone that the kit's are crap because you don't get enough ink or that the reason that they shouldn't give tattoo's at the kitchen table because when you cook, grease is released into the air and there's no way humanly possible to clean it thoroughly enough to make giving a tattoo safe? We are in a faceless community with the internet and we have no proof that we are who we say. So rather than tossing out vague references that could be typed out by any run of the mill flea market tattoo god....just give some HONEST input. Hell, I could sit here going "You shouldn't give a tattoo because I haven't taught you about BBP" and I've never given one in my life. Tell the newbies something legitimate instead. Maybe make it a pinned topic. Maybe do a list of places in the area that WILL give internships. Or even a list of some DECENT starter equipment. The last thing I want is another person who did an "internship" with a flea market flash artist screwing up my ink because no one would give them legitimate information.

Sitting here reading what I've typed, I've been hit with a stoke of GENIUS!!! Why don't the true tattoo artists here make a contest out of it??? example...... Have Noz offer an unpaid internship in his/her area and then have newbies from that area post their flash here and so on. Then Noz could email them with what he would like to know privately and narrow it down to say five newbies and then we could vote off their flash to see who get's the unpaid internship?? If every true artist here was willing to do it, we would have a lot less newbies in the kitchen scratching on people. And it would certainly be putting the money where the mouth is and would help out the art form in general. Of course, this is not picking on Noz.....I just like the way he writes. =)

Kits are made for scratchers. Period. No one is willing to tell you a "good kit" because if you're asking about a kit, you are not in a shop. By the time an apprentice reaches the point of buying the tools of the trade, he/she will already have a formed opinion about certain products and will want to purchase one machine for a certain reason, different inks, etc... His specific preferences simply will not come in a kit. Pros don't want people learning on their own because it makes the industry look bad and keeps up the "dirty" reputation that so many shops today have worked hard to demolish. But let's entertain the idea of putting a "good kit" in your hands. We'll also assume that you are a really artistic person and know everything about the health aspects of tattooing... Would you know how to set up your station? How would you know if your machine was running right? Would you know how to adjust and tune it? Would you know what needle groupings to use and why? What techniques to use to achieve the desired results? Would you know needle depth? Or if you were overworking the skin? I could go on forever but you get the point... THIS is what an apprenticeship is for. It is not fair to buy a kit and use human beings as a way to learn by trial and error. I'm speaking from experience. You should know the answers to these questions before you ever do a tattoo. That's what your mentor is for. Also, if you're doing something wrong he will be over your shoulder to correct you. He will give you designs that are appropriate for your skill level - you don't have a choice when doing family and friends and often do too large or too detailed of a piece for your technical abilities. You seem like a smart guy, I'm not sure how this reasoning is lost on you. And you can rationalize all you'd like, it won't make you right.

Hi Gina! I don't want anyone to tell me a kit is good. I just wanted to hear the reasons that kits are bad. You and Noz pretty much handled that. After that I was only saying that as a community of "pro's" perhaps something else could be suggested to help people at least buy good stuff rather than wasting money on a kit. Maybe there is no way to suggest that? How am I to know? And when you said....... "Would you know how to set up your station? How would you know if your machine was running right? Would you know how to adjust and tune it? Would you know what needle groupings to use and why? What techniques to use to achieve the desired results? Would you know needle depth? Or if you were overworking the skin? I could go on forever but you get the point..." This is the EXACT answer I was looking for as far as apprenticeships are concerned. One of the most recent posts here is talking about a place called Big Dogs or something of that nature, and at least two people followed the advise of the pro's here and got themselves interned there. But if you look at the pictures, the people doing the teaching pretty much suck. Now thanks to your most recent answer, a newbie can read and know what to expect to be taught, and maybe have some questions to ask their prospective mentor. You see, to me someone just yelling "get trained" means nothing if they have no clue what they're supposed to be trained to be doing. There are far more Big Dogs out there than there are actual "pro's" and if people don't know what to look for or what to ask when they are looking for an internship, then you are going to have thousands of people who have taken the advise of this board and "Just got an internship". Again, I understand that no one can sit on the other end of a computer and tell someone if they are "over working" skin. But you could shed SOME light. Because it's almost always more dangerous to withhold information that it is to give small pieces of honest and accurate information. Withholding information is how you get the Big Dogs. People who went out and did EXACTLY what you said to do. Go get an internship, with no other information to go with it. =( Let me ask this..... If you were willing to take an intern, would you rather have one that came in and asked what he was going to learn, and showed a real desire to learn the right way? Or would you just want a kid that was willing to come in and sweep up with no clue as to what he wanted to learn or if he was learning the right things? Again, I hope no one is taking any of this to be insulting or anything more than just a serious quest for real information. Give a sailor a map and he'll find his way home. Just toss him in the ocean and he'll surely be lost at sea. Bud