Looking for a place to start

I have been reading your posts. I want to learn to tattoo and I get it you need to do an apprenticeship. My question (hope it is not repetitive) while I am trying to find a shop to let me do an apprenticeship I would like to take classes on the diesases, etc. you all were talking about. Where is the best place to get these classes? I figure even as an apprentice you should know this shit so may as well at least get a jump start on that. Also, I know I am ignorant right now, where else other than this site can I go just to learn more about machines, supplies, etc. The more I know about the equipement itself the better apprentice I will be. Like I said I hope this is not repetitive, I have been reading posts for a couple of hours and there was so much repition and stuff to weed through. I didn't see the answer to these questions but... Anyways, thanks for any info.

no matter what anybody says definitely get a starter kit. It's a good foundation to build on. Use a pressure cooker to sterilize stuff, just the same as an autoclave. Start off with easy designs like roses so if you fuck any of it up it doesn't look so bad because things like that don't have symetrical lines. That and pratice, some of your mates should be more than willing to have a free tattoo. Nearly all tattoo suppliers will sell to you, they like to pretend in public that they won't but behind closed doors cash is cash, and they will. If any don't just tell them that you are a tattooist and give them the name of a made up shop, they never check.

In my opinion it is a rule of thumb that bad habits are much harder to break than to start good habits. Hopefully you will take this to heart when doing what you you may be doing soon. If you are curious if you have any talent for the tattoo industry at the very least put the scratch on yourself and not a "friend". The scratch may turn out ok. But what about years from now...its permanent and ignorance in yourself and the public may cause you to create a bunch of crap that looked good for a short while and bad for years to come. Also just because that scatch on your leg turned out bad don't forget you did not know what you were doing and you may be good at it if somebody shows you a successful way to apply a tattoo. Working on yourself and/or others unsupervised WILL make it harder to get an apprentiship...there is alot of competition out there and scratching looks quite bad on your resume. A tattoo artist knows more than anyone that it is hard to unlearn what you have learned and the may not want to deal with UN-teaching you. Plus if you are willing to break the law and a steal legal shops business how good an employee will they think you'll be? The best tattooists out there still say they are learning to get there style right and since they are experienced (habitual) I'm sure they will agree they wish they started right instead of being taught the crappy techniques they are trying to stop using (breaking bad habits) When they see or are taught a new and possibly better way to do something; the experienced person has a bitch of a time stopping doing what they've done over time. This includes shading techniques all the way down to keeping their work area clean. When you have a technique established (habit) it becomes second nature and you can concentrate more on creating real works of art and be successful and comfortable in your work on a daily basis. And most of all there is a good chance its illegal in your aea and a real thorn in the side for everyone spending the money to do it right in a legal shop. Beware of hammers :)

This last message was really to play devil's advocat to GAZ's reply.

Just to play devils advocate to mjf - most of the top artists today are self taught - also just to add more - there's no chance of getting anywhere unless you know someone in the business - the market is already saturated with great artists as it is and most street shops are not making good money, there's literally a shop on every corner. TWO choices - get taught, which won't happen, OR teach yourself - what most of them already did - not rocket science is it? Like I said, don't listen to anybody trying to put you off or you'll get nowhere.

gaz, just out of curiosity, could you name some of those 'top artist' who you said are 'self-taught'?

Ryan Hadley, Corey Miller, Dave Williams, Louis Molloy, Gabriel Rece - who I believe interviewed with this site, Bugs of London - now at Tattoo Lounge, Mark Parker - I'm sure if I sat here long enough I could think of a few - I also think it's kinda lame to call me out like that - It's an absolute fact that a lot of tattooists taught themselves - and everybody knows that. Including you. Lets not pretend that it didn't happen previously because it did - just as it does now, whether that's right or wrong is another conversation, but it DID and DOES happen - AND some of them are fucking good too. Please go and look at Ryan Hadleys work and you will see - it speaks for itself - go and tell him he did it wrong?!

gaz, no real need to get defensive, I wasn't 'calling you out' I was simply trying to find some specific information (names) Although I did apprentice, long before you were probably born and still do sincerely believe it's the best way to learn, I know there are exceptions to the fact that MOST people who learn on their own usually mess up a LOT of people on their road to knowledge and MOST people do NOT learn how to do it PROPERLY on their own. For every ONE that does learn to do it properly there are probably a hundred that don't and probably never will learn on their own. You see their work constantly on RateMyTattoos, MySpace-pretty much everywhere. Again, I know there are some exceptions and I was merely asking for the names of those.

bollox, you were trying to be funny and you know it - fyi I've just turned 45. People may agree, or not, with what I'm saying, however I think there are already enough tattooists out there, great tattooists at that, I can't see that the world needs another one - not unless they are above average artistically OR purely want to tattoo as a pleasure thing. I seriously can't see someone with below average artistic skills making a living at it now - there's just too many fantastic ones already. The market is saturated. Actually to edit that - you might get somewhere if you know people in the business already who are willing to give you a helping hand.

HA HA HA HA HA, i just fucking love it how all the "industry leaders" etc... all think that an apprenticeship is the only way to go, its about time this forum told them to fuck themselves.... 6 out of 10 people who think they did it all and did it the proper way, all know deep down in there tiny little minds that they were self taught. its just a massive scam to prevent people who care enough to try to get into this industry to avoid it or think its too fucking hard... i say go for it, use practice skin, read up on laws and regulations of blood borne pathogens and sterilizations etc..., spend some money buying a kit and equipment, start of on the practice skin, then try yourself, make sure you follow laws and guidlines when doing your mates or friends..... you`ll get there one day ya just need to tell these fucking ignorant bastards who thinks the world evolves around them to go fuck a sheep or something, most of em self taught themselves anyways..... and now theve got shops and studios, a massive scam to keep the money there way and not hand it over to a newbie lol.... dirty fuckers.....

gaz, aside from the fact that IF I really had been 'calling you out' as you say, you would most certainly have known it, clearly and with little room for doubt or confusion (I've done it many times, I'm good at it) there is SOME truth in what you've said. However, I do think it irresponsible for anyone to advocate just buying a kit and going for it but I'm not going to waste anymore time debating the issue as I know it is a waste of time. People are going to do what they are going to do, regardless- they're always going to have their 'reasons' (or excuses) and there is always going to be folks that will support their decision and (obviously) no shortage of folks gullible enough to get tattooed by them.

Diane/Dylan, re;Posted by Dylan from IP: 124.178.46.122 on 09/19/08 Australia HA HA HA HA HA, i just fucking love it how all the "industry leaders" etc... all think that an apprenticeship is the only way to go, its about time this forum told them to fuck themselves.... 6 out of 10 people who think they did it all and did it the proper way, all know deep down in there tiny little minds that they were self taught. its just a massive scam to prevent people who care enough to try to get into this industry to avoid it or think its too fucking hard... i say go for it, use practice skin, read up on laws and regulations of blood borne pathogens and sterilizations etc..., spend some money buying a kit and equipment, start of on the practice skin, then try yourself, make sure you follow laws and guidlines when doing your mates or friends..... you`ll get there one day ya just need to tell these fucking ignorant bastards who thinks the world evolves around them to go fuck a sheep or something, most of em self taught themselves anyways..... and now theve got shops and studios, a massive scam to keep the money there way and not hand it over to a newbie lol.... dirty fuckers..... ' Care to explain how that jives with your: 'RE:Australian Tattoo Studios Posted by Dylan from IP: 124.178.46.122 on 09/19/08 Australia to be honest with you dr dick...... i actually completed my apprenticeship about a year ago, and have since paid my dues and started my own studio with someone who has been in the industry longer than you claim to be.... ' or have I just exposed your bullshit AGAIN? Doc

doc - I find you a bit weird to be honest - The tattoo situation has been clearly stated as it is - with no grey area. You can argue all you want - the way it is, is the way it is. I'm not a tattooist nor a tattoo shop owner but I know a lot of people in the business - you claim to be a year out of your apprenticeship AND a shop owner with someone who is in the know - well who is it and what is your shops website address? Looking forward to seeing how you do it. Who did you apprentice under? What is their website address and does it have YOUR name in it? I will take a look - out of curiosity, of course. You certainly talk the talk, now lets see your crudentials.

Edit - I just googled doctor John an found a tattooist in Michigan with the same email address as what you're (doctor John above) is supplying. It says that you've been in the bus 25 years or so - so I haven't got a clue what's going on - either way if that is your site your tattoos - well I'll leave it for everybody to decide for themselves - www.drjohnstats.com - hmm... ??

gaz, re your post: 'Posted by gaz from IP: 66.74.95.141 on 09/20/08 doc - I find you a bit weird to be honest - The tattoo situation has been clearly stated as it is - with no grey area. You can argue all you want - the way it is, is the way it is. I'm not a tattooist nor a tattoo shop owner but I know a lot of people in the business - you claim to be a year out of your apprenticeship AND a shop owner with someone who is in the know - well who is it and what is your shops website address? Looking forward to seeing how you do it. Who did you apprentice under? What is their website address and does it have YOUR name in it? I will take a look - out of curiosity, of course. You certainly talk the talk, now lets see your crudentials. If you'd bothered to READ the post it is not me claiming to be a year out of apprenticeship and/or a shop owner with someone in the know' etc., THAT post was responding to Dylan/Diane about more of his bullshit. In the future kindly read and try to comprehend a post before commenting on it. If you want to understand what that particular post was about, check the thread 'Australian Tattoo Studios' and be sure to check out the work being done which is posted on his website, which, to me anyways, ties right in with this thread. THEN, if you have any questions you wish to ask, we can go from there. Doc

gaz, re your post: Posted by gaz from IP: 66.74.95.141 on 09/20/08 'Edit - I just googled doctor John an found a tattooist in Michigan with the same email address as what you're (doctor John above) is supplying. It says that you've been in the bus 25 years or so - so I haven't got a clue what's going on - either way if that is your site your tattoos - well I'll leave it for everybody to decide for themselves - www.drjohnstats.com - hmm... ??' Son, you really need to brush up on your reading AND comprehension skills as this is quickly becoming as waste of time dealing with you. Yes, that is indeed my site, which has been posted here before I might add and it also states I've been 'in the bus' as you say over 40 years (not 25) but as you stated 'so I haven't got a clue what's going on', which is rather obvious from a number of things in your posts. If you don't care for my style of tattooing, fine, I could care fucking less, I have a strong client base without need of your 'approval'. I'd believe the point is/should be that I do good and clean work, whether or not you like my 'style', nor, I might point out, does THAT particular point have anything to do with this thread. Doc

Doc I don't WANT to come on here an try to put you down - but you ask for it. You have a "I know better than you" attitude, yet your tattoos are absolutely terrible - anybody can go to your website and make their own opinion. How can you judge people when you are not in a position to do so? You need to go back to the drawing board (literally), and get an apprenticeship. You're work is not a "style" - it's just utter shit, seriously. AND you were the one who HAD an apprenticeship?? What does that say? Not a lot huh? You're making me look right here - you know that don't you?

gaz, I'm done wasting my time with you and seriously doubt anyone with a functional brain would see much/any merit to your post/accusations so continue to fee free to be a babbling anonymous idiot on the internet, I assure you it will not effect me, my business or my reputation one iota. Actually, lame shit like this gives me and my clients many a good laugh so keep 'em coming, just don't expect me to waste anymore time on you or your stupid point of views.

I'm sorry but if you come across as an expert don't be upset when you're asked to show your expertise. As CLEARLY demonstrated, your argument for formal apprenticeships as opposed to self taught, has held absolutely no water - you're a prime example. I hope new people trying to get somewhere will treat this as a good lesson in not to listen to just any old fucker, but to follow what their heart tells them, and that if you don't try - they don't get. AND ultimitely, if they want something - GO for it.

RDTERR- Its good to see you want to go about this the right way. Any clean shop should have biohazard/ blood-borne pathogens/ cross contamination literature or videos. In Florida, the law says they have to. Also, don't worry about learning anything now. In fact, the less you know, the better it is. Most artists would rather have a clean slate to teach that someone who knows (or thinks they know) anything about tattooing. Your best bet is just to go talk to people, let them know you're interested, get tattooed, and hope for the best. Its going to get hard, and you'll get discouraged, but don't give up. keep at it, and you'll thank yourself for doing it the right way. good luck.

Boy do people like to argue. I love how people love to throw out "statistics" like "the majority of the top artists" and "6 out of 10." For craps sake guys, think before you speak. Here's the thing, it's not disputable that SOME of the "top notch" artists are taught. On top of people mentioned, Adrian Dominic and Mike DeVries are also primarily self taught, HOWEVER, people that like are the exception, not the norm. Ok so we can think of a list of 10 maybe 20 amazing artist who are self taught, fair enough, Let's talk about the hundreds, probably thousands, of dumb asses who scratch people up and cause incredible health risks. I'm sure now everyone will feel inclined to argue "7 out of 10 scratches don't give someone a blood borne disease" or whatever stats people like to fabricate, but the fact of the matter is for the most part, an apprenticeship is the smartest, and most importantly safest route to go.

actually completely agree with the above poster - arguments get heated when new comers aren't given a chance - I'm talking about by people who themselves, aren't in a position to judge - I personally think everybody should be given a fair chance - yes I agree with Gabe when he talks about artistic skills - totally, you NEED to be above average to get anywhere these days, and if you're not, you need to put your efforts into improving those skills. I find I get defensive because I think it's mean to not help people - especially, as in Gabe's case, when he has no artistic skills himself, doesn't tattoo AND advertises tattoo supplies on his website - even if they have just "slipped through the net". hmm... His first reaction to most new people is "show us your art" - well Gabe - you show us yours? I don't mean to be nit picky, but surely to god he should be helping new people rather than judging them - not just Gabe - I'm just using him as the example here. The same went for Doc - absolutely in no position to judge. I just think it's wrong, and utterly immoral, not to help people - of course, if they have the skills artistically that is - not just any old Joe! And Gabe if you read this you can choose to censor me all you like - but some of this has rang true hasn't it? (even if you don't admit it).

I have found nearly all of the great self taught tattooer artists regret putting years of crap on people. the thing with an apprenticeship is you have a mentor that insures the skin will get a safe tattoo. If theres no mentor to answer quesitons and unsure the public gets a good tattoo, then the end result is loads of crappy tattoos being put on skin. Gaz, we do help people, we tell them to get real good at their art and to get real good tattoos so they can get real adivce from real artists. Asking for advice on the internet is stupid.I dont think its mean to protect the publics skin at all, I think its lazy to expect handouts on the internet. We have had three apprentices since we opened the studio, indeed the whole studio and convention we are hosting is all about educating artists. responsibly. Ill show you the "art" that results from my efforts. TattooNOW.com OfftheMapTattoo.com and Tattoogathering.com I think I can judge good art and tattoos pretty well, I cant draw to save my life, but Im not so sure anyone would argue that I know what a good and bad tattoo is. Please, tell me which irresponsible advertiser is running ads, I dont make nearly enough from them to make it worth having them up. I dont censor the board much, and sorry to say, not much of your accusations ring true one bit. We help the artists who deserve it all the time... In fact, I've made three businesses out of helping artists share and communicate... Helping people who dont help themselves doesnt help anyone. Just cause we dont give out advice to random people on the internet doesnt mean we dont help people everyday. This is a public forum, NOT real life...

you just can't see the wood for the trees - If anybody has no right to preach it's you - you know exactly what I mean. Anyway this has to end somewhere and I think it's finally here. I don't think you're a bad person, just blinkered.

I dont know what you mean, please explain. Why dont I have the right to express my opinions on the website I have spent countless hours building and growing? Not for nothing, if people dont like what Im doing (Ive given you links to the result of my art) or my opinion, then they dont have to listen. If they like what Im doing, hey, they might want to. I guess its for the public to decide who to listen to. Anyways, what exactly are you arguing? That we/I are assholes cause we dont help people learn technical aspects of tattooing on an anonymous public internet forum? If you want that responsibility, then you are free to start your own you know...

- TATTOOBYDOO - Hope I got your screen name right. Anyway, thank you for your reply. That helps a lot. Right now I am focusing on my art work. Putting together a portfolio. And trying to draw stuff that is unusual for me. As silly as is may seem. I am putting quarters in the machines at the grocery store with the tattoos you put on with water and practicing drawing those. I can draw but am not extremely creative. If someone tells me what they want me to draw I can draw it but as far as thinking of something off the top of my head...so...this is where I am at...drawing...and trying to find tips on my next steps. I appriciate your help.

You should send an hour or more everyday looking through different types of art to help your "visual vocabulary" expand. Check out the sci fi art magazines, the lo-brow art magazines, as much as possible! Find new artists and dissect their artwork every day. Have you taken many art classes? The ringling school of design in florida is awesome, two of our apprentices attended there (the two could draw and paint *real* good!) and many of the designers I used to work with in the video game industry. Is there a link where we can see your artwork?