most employers probably would not hire you

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - First lady Laura Bush said on Tuesday that young people are more likely to get jobs if they avoid tattoos, as well as drugs and alcohol. "We know that people who do avoid drugs and alcohol are more likely to be able to get a job," she said in an interview with American Urban Radio Network. "We want young people to avoid gangs. And we know that if they're not tattooed with gang tattoos, they're more likely to be employable," Bush said. Bush has been active in youth issues and promotes helping young people overcome disadvantaged environments to get an education and jobs. "Well, if you're tattooed on your face or your arms ... where people can see it ... most employers probably would not hire you," Bush said, according to a transcript released by the White House. She cited a program in Los Angeles aimed at stopping gang violence, Homeboy Industries, where she met young people who had dealt drugs, been in prison, were tattooed on their foreheads and on their necks, and trying to turn their lives around. Father Gregory Boyle who runs the program has two laser machines and doctors give their time without charge to remove tattoos, she said in another interview with USA Radio Network. "So that after people have worked at Homeboy Industries they can go out and find a job with a silk-screening business, with a graphic business, with restaurants, with bakeries," Bush said

Sad truth is she's right. Most employers have policies against visible tattoos. However, the article focuses more on gang related tattoos, which I don't relate to in the slightest. Mrs. Bush is trying to reach out to gang youth, not simply people into tattoos in general. At any rate, I get tattoos as a form of artistic expression, but I know I won't be seeking employment where I'd have to serve the general public directly. Those that do will have to seriously consider the consequences of getting "visible" tattoos.

Of course, one should also note, that she makes no mention of the lack of educational oppurtunities available to those that have 'gang tattoos'. To break that down: lower socio-economic areas tend to have higher likelihoods of gangs to develop. Many times the gang is making up for the lost social network that would be provided for with a family; that structure is often working and cannot be home for their children. Lower socio-economic families by and large have the worse school systems in the nation so it is not surprising that given the choice to get a better job through education is lost on these youth. Now I could get on a stump on the way her husband's "No Child Left Behind" act has done little to help, and instead has continued to hurt the public education system, but I won't. This article focuses on keeping people on the low wrung of the ladder to stay there, they aren't promoting real progress up. "Wow, I can work at a BAKERY! Thank fucking God! This will save me and my family from poverty." The tattoos are not the problem, they may be a symptom but not the problem. We are still in fairly conservative era regarding tattoos. Sleeves are becoming more acceptable, but face, neck and hand tattoos are still tabooed. More and more 'professionals' are getting large scale work and that may continue or dry up, no one can tell. As is, there is a nation of college students getting far more noticeable tattoo work and are not having trouble finding employment. Clientle are becoming smarter about shopping for good work and better designs. You may not see too many lawyers or doctors with their hands done, but don't be too surprised if you see a little color poking out from their collared shirt.

Unfortunately, that "sad truth" (that visible tattoos make you unemployable) is never going to change if people are too scared to get a visible tattoo. Its a big job, combating social stereotypes, and its not for everyone. Lucky for me, the only one I combat is visible tattoos, Im a white male with a bloodline that actually goes back to the mayflower(but all that wasp $$$ left the family before I got here damn it!). I dont have too much personal experience with gang tattoos, though, removing them(while important) is a very superficial way to think you can fix that problem. You know, remove their gang tattoos so they can get a job at a bakery, holy moses she said that! (no offense to professional bakers). But while the main jist of the article is gang tattoos, her thoughts on other visible tattoos are clear as day. Her attitude disgusts me. Anyone who thinks of any other human being as "unemployable" because of a visible tattoo has a bit to learn about being a team player. Shit, this lady is so out of touch she probably doesnt realize that she just said that upwards of 10-15% of the country wouldnt be employed by "most employers". Yeah, ok lady, tell you what. open your @#$%ing eyes, we already are already here, we are already tattooed, and most of us are employed. As far as my own combating stereotypes, its been pretty easy. One thing I found very interesting is that contrary to popular belief good quality tattoos can get you jobs. I found during my 10 year "professional" career as a freelance programmer (and a punk high school teacher before that) that my fantastic colorful tattoos set me apart in a positive light. Instead of being one of the many bright people looking for a job, I was the *only* colorful bright one trying to get the job(Im sure my charm helped too :-). Granted, I dont have shitty skulls done with blown out lines everywhere I got when I was 14 looking for a job that meathead could do. Thats someone else's story. I do know that while I have received my fair share of prejudice because of my tattoos, they have helped me a *lot* more than hurt me. Tattoo Artists do tattoos on all sorts of professionals thesedays. The tide is changing, we just need to be careful to insure that people get good tattoos that bring the art up, not thoughtless crappy ones that bring the art down... The way tattoos can be accepted as fine art (and not discouraged in public by "most" employers) is too A) make sure that the public is educated enough to avoid getting bad tattoos and B) make sure the public isnt too scared to get them. We know the public is getting braver and braver, we just need to keep making them smarter so the visible tattoos are better. Im sure there will never be a shortage of companies that will employ smart unique creative colorful(or black and grey) people. Ok, people, lets start spouting off all the jobs we have despite our tattoos, and who doesnt have one because of their visible tattoos. gabe TattooNOW

Okay, here's a bigger problem that Laura Bush should be looking into: People without visible tattoos who don't use drugs or alcohol also cannot get jobs.

Gabe and others, I sense a lot of "I hate republicans, so I'm going to negative-spin ANYTHING they do" going on here. I got the sense from the initial post it was meant to insite rage amongst all the liberals, but some of us like to think outside of the bun ;-) Laura's heart is in the right place in that she's trying to SOMETHING to help, but to say that her attitude "disgusts" you is a bit too extreme I think. Yes, there are people that think tattoos are the worse thing a person can do to their body, but I don't consider that a reason to have disgust for someone. The only thing I'd debate Laura on is the perspective of tattoos she has. I would not, however, presume to debate her on the merits of getting people off the streets and working. I don't like the attitude of "oh working at a bakery isn't going to help, so I'm better off being in a gang". That's a bullshit and defeatest philosophy. Any kind of legit work is better than nothing. Making the effort to try is the American way (or used to be). What's the alternative? Doing nothing and getting nowhere. Now Gabe, I have a beef with you I'd like to "Air" here. I've seen ads on this site for of all things the Al Franken Show and Air America. My personal view is this is not a good idea for a business that promotes anyone to shop and learn about tattoos. Granted its your site and your money, but people like myself find that extremely offensive. Al Franken is one of the biggest hypocritical liars on the planet, so I place him no higher than those he would burn at the stake. On top of that, he's a rude prick who gets in people's faces. Case in point about his hypocrisy: He denied any knowledge about a scam to bail Air America out of debt with nearly a million dollars of taxpayer money. Months later it was discovered that not only was he in on the scam, but HE SIGNED THE DEAL! Is that going to be in his next Lying Liars book? Not if he's a hypocrit... So I've been stewing about this for a while. I tried to keep silent as best as I could because I really like tattoos, this site, and the artwork involved, but when you shove this political crap into it, there's only so much I can take without speaking up. Sorry if I'm now to be considered the enemy. I will no longer be visiting this site as a result. My apologies for the off topic rant.

Gabe and others, I sense a lot of "I hate republicans, so I'm going to negative-spin ANYTHING they do" going on here. I got the sense from the initial post it was meant to insite rage amongst all the liberals, but some of us like to think outside of the bun ;-) Thats because you are drinking the cool aid. :-) It didnt cross my mind "to insite rage amongst all the liberals," at all, but rather I was pissed that the mother of two presidents could be so out of touch with the tattoo culture, one that transcends all other cultures. Some of the important things she said are relevant to almost everyone who reads this site. I was wondering what our readers thought, all of them. I dont think about splitting my readership into "liberals" and "neocons". Readers are readers and I like listening and talking to everyone. I dont hate republicans, though, I often (obviously) disagree with them. I did find it an interesting (and disturbing) article about tattoos that came through the news wire. Talking about whats happening in the world is important, so I like to do it. I do ejnoy when right wingers call me narrow minded, though! Thanks, I do think outside the bun. Thats why I think negative attitudes about body art are wrong and something to fight. Id rather not just accept the fact the mother of the president thinks Im a second class citizen. :-) Laura's heart is in the right place in that she's trying to SOMETHING to help, I disagree. I dont believe that just because "someone does something" that her heart is in the right place. If she really wants to solve the gang problem, its easy to see the problem runs deeper than the kids wont get jobs because of tattoos. Her attitude of "Just take the tattoos off and you can get a job at a bakery" is not going to help solve the problem. Gang tattoos are a side effect to the problem. Treating the side effect does not help cure the problem. but to say that her attitude "disgusts" you is a bit too extreme I think. Well, I might concede here a bit, disgust is a strong word. I understand her attitude and for the most part ignore people like her. She certainly seems to think that tattoos make one unemployable and doesnt see the problem with that. Thats quite the insult (to most of the people on this site!). Yes, there are people that think tattoos are the worse thing a person can do to their body, but I don't consider that a reason to have disgust for someone. Me neither, but her attitude is not simply tattoos are the worst thing, it is that they make that person "less worthy" of employment. That is, if she said "I would never get a tattoo because I hate them" that would be one thing. She told us that we are unemployable by "most employers" because of the art we put on our bodies and thats ok. The only thing I'd debate Laura on is the perspective of tattoos she has. I would not, however, presume to debate her on the merits of getting people off the streets and working. I don't like the attitude of "oh working at a bakery isn't going to help, so I'm better off being in a gang". That's a bullshit and defeatest philosophy. Any kind of legit work is better than nothing. Making the effort to try is the American way (or used to be). What's the alternative? Doing nothing and getting nowhere. I do wholeheartedly agree that getting people off the streets and working is a solution, and the goal, and gang tattoo removal is a good thing(of course). Certainly we dont want people being lazy and not working, we want the population to be smart, strong, working, and productive. I think we both agree wholeheartedly with that. The solution to keeping kids out of gangs and working, by definition, cant be removing tattoos (the tattoos happen well after the damage is already done). We need to go to the root of the problem. Why do Kids join gangs? Fix those problems. What do you think the solution to the inner city/gang problem is? Now Gabe, I have a beef with you I'd like to "Air" here. I've seen ads on this site for of all things the Al Franken Show and Air America. My personal view is this is not a good idea for a business that promotes anyone to shop and learn about tattoos. You know, I struggled with this one for a while. How much should my ideas and believes come through on my website. Do I keep politics off this website and sanitize it for everyone or is not speaking my mind just as bad. My decision to speak my mind on this website came down to a few points. One thing tattooing has taught me is to express myself without fear of reprisal from society. If I believe in something (ie, a stronger working class america) then I should endeavor to include that philosophy in my work, indeed its my duty as an involved American to use my voice. A large part of tattooing has always been about rebelling. So, if they have the press, the airwaves, the congress, the senate and the whitehouse, then the I get my little piece of cyberspace. One thing I love about the tattoo culture is we are outside the mainstream and dont need to answer to anyone. I figuered I would speak my mind here, I work hard enough to, and if there was a major outcry then I would revise my decision. In the last few years I have receive less than 5 pissed off emails and over a hundred thank you emails. Honestly, my political philosophy, one of education, hard work, honesty, and making friends is what got me here. In other words, my politics has helped my business immensely. It seems like if you work hard for the working class, the working class supports you. And we all know its the working class that supports the tattoo industry. Granted its your site and your money, but people like myself find that extremely offensive. I apologize, I dont like to offend anyone. On the otherhand, there are lots of naked women pics and other things on this site people might find offensive, and there are things that *I* find offensive. Hell, I bet Laura, from her comments, would find this whole site offensive. Im sorry to offend, but alas, Im offended every day too. Im not in the business to make sure you arnt offended. Al Franken is one of the biggest hypocritical liars on the planet, so I place him no higher than those he would burn at the stake. On top of that, he's a rude prick who gets in people's faces. I find him one of the funniest political commentators who is the hardest to call out on lies. When his marketshare is the same (or close) to his mirror on the right, Rush, then I would feel comfortable taking Ads for his show down. I would love to hear why he is "biggest hypocritical liars on the planet". Thats quite the title! Case in point about his hypocrisy: He denied any knowledge about a scam to bail Air America out of debt with nearly a million dollars of taxpayer money. Months later it was discovered that not only was he in on the scam, but HE SIGNED THE DEAL! Is that going to be in his next Lying Liars book? Not if he's a hypocrit... So wait, he spends all day calling out the right on *serious* lies and spin, and you think hes the biggest hypocrite of all because of the way Air America was bailed out of their financial troubles... 1) I'd love to hear more about this very juicy scandal(Ive heard a bit but it doesnt seem all that important compared to the other scandals thesedays), and 2) You have to weigh this against his Mirrors scandals.... You know, rush and O'Reily dont have very clean records... So I've been stewing about this for a while. I tried to keep silent Please dont be silent. The last thing this world needs is more complacent silent people. I dont put a gag on myself and dont expect other people to. as best as I could because I really like tattoos, this site, and the artwork involved, but when you shove this political crap into it, there's only so much I can take without speaking up. Sorry if I'm now to be considered the enemy. I dont consider you an enemy (though I do consider this administration one). I believe its pretty simple at the end of the day. If someones actions filter "power" to the majority of the population then they are the good guys. If they filter money and power to the upper crust, then they are bad guys. As far as us peasants, I wouldn't consider any of us the enemy whether we disagree or not. We are merely pawns, though we are also the solution. I will no longer be visiting this site as a result. Sad to hear it. You have been an active participant in the forums so I will hate to lose you as a visitor. Please, never feel like your an enemy around here. I have to tune out advertisements I find offensive all the time, sorry you cant do the same. I can understand leaving for the Franken Ads, but this article was about on topic as you can get, and if your offended that Im offended that Laura thinks that visible tattoos mean that most employers wont hire you (and theres nothing wrong with that) than I guess thats the price I pay. Lucky for me there are over 600,000 people a month that arent so offended. My apologies for the off topic rant. No need, the only part off topic was the franken bit and thats more than welcome. Never apologize for speaking your mind around here. I wont either.

Oh, and my bad. Laura is obviously not the mother of 2 presidents, though she is the first lady. My bad. for some reason I thought we were talking about the Bush mom, and even then she would only be the mother of 1 president. See, dont trust me, do your own homework!

laura bush is also old...my grandmother is old, she doesnt like tattoos either, my grandma isnt hiring people to work either. just because shes in power doesnt mean she doesnt have her own outdated opinions. let her talk thats all shes doing whether shes right or wrong

yeah what she was saying is about gang shit. tattoos have being encresing in popularity and alot pple with them have jobes for crist sake a teacher in a highschool in my town hase 2 full sleves, witch looks sick by the way but hes a teacher a very well respected member in our town. In 20 yrs every one will have a tattooo and pple wont descrimante any more !!!!!!

o yeah also i forgot to put sumthing in........FUCK BUSH and THIS ADMINISTRATIN pple i dont know why u cant see this he came to office to finish his dadys work and they both FUCKED US OVER!!!! OIL, WAR, AND POLITICS.

Thats Ok, I don't want to work for most employers anyway. It all works out.

Krystof, cheers!

Yo corey, Since you appear to be a complete idiot, let's try to dumb this down to your level: FUCK YOU.

Wow, the level of discussion has raised up. I guess it is an internet forum... In any event, for those who care, I did offer FBX a classified spot so links expressing his views could run right alongside ours.

Here it is from a town consisting of the proletariat. Good people can get jobs, visible tattoos or not. Whether a person deems said job as good or not is a matter of opinion. Also, the willingness of a person to overcome prejudice and obstacles and actually go to work makes a BIG difference. Key point in the political realm is that *tattoos* are not REALLY the problem. Availability of jobs is the true heart of the matter here. In this small town, we have been seeing factories close lately. Now that it is too late, people are shell-shocked, asking "why," and scrambling to save local jobs. The plain and truthful answer is the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap labor foreign markets. At debate is Lady Bush weighing in from her cushy life riding around in a limo, smiling for the cameras, and completely glossing over the real problem. The relocating of these businesses affects the entire community. I like having a clientele… and food… and shelter like the next guy. But it's hard for people to afford tattoos when their job is gone. Hey, good news though! We have a shiny new Super Wal-Mart selling cheap-o junk from overseas to show for the turmoil. Sure, blame it all on visible tattoos. BUT… Lets talk about NAFTA, or did we forget about that? That was a Clinton/Republican Congress thing if I'm not mistaken. Or, how about the war Mrs. Bush's husband started against all constitutionality? I don't support terrorism, but let's get real already. Hey folks, how about that cost of living? I'm sure great granddad (RIP) would choke if he saw the cost of a gallon of milk, or gas, these days. Is that the fault of a guy with tattoos trying to get a job, or a greed-ridden corporate economy? I'm fairly certain that any one person or group did not cause the majority of these problems. Politicians dating back to the beginning of this country did. Please, remember that Mrs. Bush, intentionally or not, is skating around the real problems plaguing young America. It is our duty as Americans to point it out. Lets not play their game by sweeping this stuff under the rug. Is anyone else concerened that the only jobs feasibly left for folks seem to be in food manufacturing, (ahem... bakeries)? -Kandyman Joe www.pureimaginationtattoos.com [email removed]

It is sad to admit to and that is the fact there are shallow people who will not hire anyone who has a tattoo. When i was younger and had to work i choose not to get a tattoo not even if it could not be seen. After I retired i got my tattoos. This year i got all my tattoos a total of 24 and i only want a few more.I dont have to worry about a job and have the freedom to get my tattoos without the thought of lack of employment. Not that it would matter that I have a Masters in the medical field i still would not got hired with tattoos. so now i enjoy getting them and searching for ideas..

You people need to put the bong down. This article isn't about "visible tattoos", or anything resembling artwork. Gang tats, teardrops, La Raza crap tats. All the colored scars that have nothing to do with art or self expression, and everything to do with indentifying yourself as an enemy combatant to a rival gang member. Laura Bush or Bushs beans, it doesn't matter who is cheering it on. If it keeps someone alive and helps them gain employment and access to the fruits of society,, Im all for it. I grew up poor.....have black/gray tats on my arms and back. Im a paramedic supervisor and college instructor. Socioeconomic factors didnt inhibit me from suceeding, but im pretty sure a giant "southside 13" scrawled across my forehead would leave my patients and students a little concerned about my priorities and possibly damage my credibility. Everyone seems to want to make this a "fuck em if they dont like my ink" argument. I think its a bit deeper than that.

The gist Ive been getting is : Gang tattoos are bad and should be removed, no question its better to get a job (no matter what) than more gang tattoos. The problem of jobs, and the gang lifestyle leading to, at best, bakery and printing jobs are much deeper than simply removing tattoos. Theres nothing wrong with those jobs, obviosuly, I have good friends that do/have done both, but I would hope we would try to open the doors of oppertunity even more. Lastly, if we work hard with visible tattoos, like you are, then the acceptence of tattoos in the professional workplace will become more common.

mostly to FBX and RedForeman: Disclaimer: I am neither liberal or conservative. I am an artist and businessman who's work depends on his clients being employed. There is good and evil in every topic under the sun: Religion, Politics, Tattoos, and so on. A lot of the "tattoo community" anger being put forth here seems to be toward Mrs. Bush's obvious stereotype that anyone visibly tattooed is gang related (therefore not employable). She entirely disregards any tattoo as being good or of value. I'm tired of politicians, medicine, religion, and media, superficially pointing blame toward tattoos as the cause of the world's problems. Then again, as Lizardman says, "If you don't like the show, be sure and to go out and tell EVERYONE just how much you hated it." Like I said before, good people can get jobs. RedForeman's story here is proof of this adaptability... The point is: it's not being tattooed that keeps a person "down." I agree with him that it is a deeper issue, it just seems tattoos, gang related or not, are being used as a scapegoat to justify discrimination and lack of opportunity. Maybe Laura needs to pick the bong up? Kandyman Joe www.pureimaginationtattoos.com [email removed] 319-385-3977

Kandyman Joe can speak for me for the next few days. Evidently Im in a very grumpy mood and have taken to snapping. So, Kandyman Joe will take over with the smart points and even keeled temper until I get back on my meds.

lol at least your smart enough to say you wont go postal on us. i give you my respect.

I think that the major issue here is whether potential employers can tell the difference between real art and home-made piece of shit tattooing. If you only look superficially then any tattoo can appear to be a bullshit tattoo made by any random joe with a bic pen and a guitar string. Too many employers think about the possiblity of offending customers/clients/guests when they look at a candidate with visible tattooing. This is the issue. I know, by being a visibly tattooed woman, that this is the case. Espcially in the hearland. I walk into a restaurant, which is where I have all of my work experience, and is what I love to do, and all they see is piercings and tattoos. They keep the resume because they have to, but they do not look at beyond my back leaving the door. I have literally gone in for an interview when all they have seen of me is my resume, and when they see me for the first time, you can watch their interest go from high to nil. It is quite disgusting. My husband, apart from being a fabulous tattoo artist, is also a highly skilled plumber but I'll be damned if he can get a job plumbing because of his appearance. He is worse (in terms of visible tattoos and piercings) than I am. The major thing to remember, which I remind myself of constantly, is that it is not the ink that makes a man (or woman), it is the quality of work and work ethic. I know that I am a good candidate for any job that I apply for, I just have to find the right place with open minded management. I say with my defiant fist in the air, to any visibly tattooed man (male) who is trying to get a job, just think how much harder it is for a visibly tattooed woman. Although I like to think that stereotypes don't exsist anymore, we all know that is just not true. To be a tattooed woman is hard, to be a visibly tattooed woman is harder. It is a life changing decision/event to get your first visible tattoo as a woman. You must deal with the whole world looking at you differently. You must choose to go all the way with it and make the complete lifestyle change or choose to try to remain mainstream while not being entirely of it. It is difficult, to say the least. You buck traditions going back generations-and beyond-of women. Most women that I run into want to know why I have chosen a life of separation from my fellow womankind. My family, my friends, my acquaintances, random people on the street, everyone looks at me differently because of that choice. But I wouldn't change it for the world. Not for a penny, not for a million dollars. I love my tattoos and each one of them is so dear to me and so special. I will never look back at the person I was before tattoos with envy. Never.