OFF TOPIC: More Troops to Iraq...?

Hmmm, looks like its gonna happen... what do ya think?

I hope the newly elected can start to put an end to this ridiculous load of BULLSH!T.How do we get OUR government to do what the people that elected them want?Hurry up 2008!Make sure you all get out and vote.

keep sending em till all the extremists are dead.

In that case dez why don't we just fence it off and let 'em finish themselves off?Nobody in or out.When they're done will claim the oil.That's what this is about.

Keep sending WHO? Do you have any kids or loved ones over there? I have friends over there fighting! Screw that obviously the Iraqi's don't DESERVE FREEDOM.. not only did we destroy the only block to Iran's expansion, make Saddam a martyr, and make the whole middle east hate us even more.. we can't even get our people out of the friggin mess. Sending more troops isn't going to do anything.. this is a freakin urban vietnam.. they don't melt into the jungle, they melt into the populace.. how can we find them? We aren't equipped or trained to fight a war where the enemy doesn't confront us.. tanks, helicopters, etc etc can only fight what they see.. Screw that.. make a nice big glass gas station.. nuke 'em all get our guys out.. isn't that the only way we could get the hell out of WWII? Why doesn't anyone learn from history.. more troops isn't going to do shit except spend more money so we have to borrow more from CHINA.. they're the ones funding our war with low interest loans.. so when they want to cash in lets not hear any bitching about how the chinese own america!!! They'll enforce it through the world bank.. which we cannot tell to screw.. cb

hotspark, that is an excellent idea. i served for 4 years.

The whole world celebrated when President Reagan applied enough pressure to have the berlin wall removed, Now we are going to build our own fence/wall ? Disgraceful !!!

We need to stop letting the government fool us into thinking we are there to help the Iraqi people, the only reason we are there is for the oil, if we are so concerned about the people of Iraq then why dont we give a shit about the people in our own country who need help? I support the troops but not the cause. And for everyone who says fuck em, drop the bomb and shit like that, I hope you are ready to go over there to fight, and maybe send your kids too.

But, ummm, Dez.... what if sending more troops creates more extremists?

"The whole world celebrated when President Reagan applied enough pressure to have the berlin wall removed, Now we are going to build our own fence/wall ? Disgraceful !!!" I merely suggest we leave them to their own devices.How is it we have business in their land?I tell you what I think,OIL.There isn't any oil in Africa,is that why we don't have troops there?There's plenty of terrorist around the world.Our leaders only care about the ones who reside near OIL!We have plenty of problems on our own soil that need to be addressed.I say FUCK iraq either fence it off or kill 'em all and let the gods sort them out.

Follow the money. War profiteers... I wouldn't want to have their karma...

Ok, how did REAGAN apply enough pressure to drop the berlin wall?? What the heck kind of pressure was he putting on? I was over there, I don't remember Reagan's name coming up at all. Craig

FACT: only 3-4% of americans were in the revolution. all we need is mobilization.

there's no oil in africa, eh? better do some research on that one, son.

i agree with the kill em all, part.

i don't think it's creating more extremists, gabe, i think it's just bringing the existing ones out of the woodwork.

may as well make it 4 straight posts.

Eh,ya got me on that one dez.In that case mabey Africa's next.I don't know how/why we can keep fighting everyone else's war before we take care of the mess we have at home.

Read the news fellas....A major offensive was just undertaken in Somalia ...a so called "terrorist hunt"

OK you win Reagen had nothing to do with ending the cold war, But he did make a speech. Of course you heard nothing about him and you was there..... http://www.reaganfoundation.org/reagan/speeches/wall.asp

Dez, you gotta be kidding me. Maybe being isolated up there in the cold has done things to your brain. You really think invading Iraq and fucking it up hasn't helped radicle extremest recruiting???

I can't believe he's sending more troops over there to die. And we hardly ever hear about all the Iraqi civilian casualities...haven't we done enough harm to their lives? Isn't it like 3 times the amount of innocent Iraqi civilians die than American troops...what about them? The idea of just bombing the place is disgusting...they're not all terrorists...they're people and we're killing them and ruining their lives in greater number than they're killing us. Thos civlians don't deserve to die anymore than our troops do. There's just no easy answer. Oh...and when I say we, I mean Bush...I sure as hell didn't vote for this mess.

sure, gabe. it's helped radical recruiting. but if you're not a radical, then you can't be recruited. i think part of the overall scheme was to lure radical minded islamists to iraq and kill them all. unfortunatley, the job isn't getting done due to lack of troops, and "diplomacy". diplomacy does not work on lunatics. there are many reasons for the war that have not been revealed, such a putting pressure on iran and saudi arabia, centralizing islamofacists, and making democrats cry. not all will work, they never do in war.... (the democrats are crying, but that isn't really anything new, that's their schtick) ummmm, i'm rambling. i'll come back when i get a couple more coffees.

Dem. GOP. Who cares? One word: Idiocracy. I face it every day I walk out the door. Think I'm gonna go by (sic) an extra large Gatorade.

oops have to rephrase that... go bah me a extry lorge gatoryade drank. It has electro lights. :)

"but if you're not a radical, then you can't be recruited." Do you think our invasion and subsequent failure to keep the peace in Iraq has has yielded radicle or moderate consequences? You dont think the mess and resentment we made is helping recruit any extra enemies of the US? Do you really believe 20k more troops is enough to accomplish anything? Im pretty sure no generals in Iraq wanted more troops. Seems like they are all pretty much against it because 20k more troops wont do anything but stir up more trouble than contain. It seems to be common knowledge that it would take more like 200k more to really be able to bring stability to the region. But even that would really just be a band aid on a festering wound, not a solution to healing whats very broken. But this move, its just horrifying. Maybe you can explain in simple words how this will help, Im confused.

20,000 troops, each kills 2 insurgents. that's 40,000 dead assholes. the middle east has always hated americans. dropping a few million tonnes of ordinance didn't make any difference to muslim sentiments.

Is it me, or did dez just contradict himself?

Is it me, or did dez just contradict himself?

[Quote] 20,000 troops, each kills 2 insurgents. that's 40,000 dead assholes. AHAHAHA Can`t argee with the Math.

" Is it me, or did dez just contradict himself?" wouldn't be the first time.

josey, did you forget your english lessons? In any event, Dez's math is dangerously simple, very inaccurate, leaves out half the story, and has been argued by almost every acting general. My guess is dez's words are more bait, for no one with such talents could really believe that a few tons of bombs being dropped on peoples heads wont change their disposition. I dont think even dez can be so thick.

First of all 20,000 troops aren't each killing 2 extremists.. hell, 10 troops aren't killing 20.. they disappear, melt into the population, move to another area, go underground.. same shit as vietnam.. We ARE creating extremists through the violence we are spreading throughout the middle east from this war, civilian casualties create extremists, the fact that we support Israel creates our enemies, our occupation of saudi arabia and kuwait creates extremists, our messing with afghanastan and pakistan creates extremists.. there are plenty of reasons why we're hated. Do you remember what bin laden wanted from us before he attacked? Do you remember his demand? "Get out of saudi arabia".... that was the biggest thing he wanted.. We don't need to do anything extra to create more enemies the way we are doing things is creating plenty.. almost all of saudi arabia hates us as it is.. they have a very very strong militant islamic movement called Wahhabis. The only ones who like us is the royal family because we help keep them in power... the palestinians hate us, Iran hates us.. 3/4's of the iraqi's hate us.. syria hates us.. c'mon.. do I need to go on?? The cost of so called 'failure' is the same as if we win.. we'll get more terrorism either way.. we're MAKING terrorists every day.. Craig

LMAO Gabe I knew I was off yesterday, Everytime I went to walk on water I sank….. Go Figure

under those circumstances craig, one would think policies that encourage business development in alternative energies while bringing our military home to recoup from the last few years stress would also give them less reason to hate us so vehemently. We would at the same time become a stronger more self reliant country while getting our military the hell out of countries we dont belong in... At the same time they have less reason to strike us here we are able to protect ourselves more. Hell, even the tough guys argue that we should let em kill each other if they want. We're a smart country, we can think our way past oil if we really wanted. I dunno, I kinda feel like if we wanted to export democracy we would do it by leading by example, not trying to ramrod it with bombs down peoples thoughts. I bet if 80% of the country were strong and smart and pushing in the same positive direction and trading fairly with the world that more countries would mimic our way of governing. Right now the US isn't a shining example of the government listening to its population (or the facts) and hasn't been for a while.

See the problem is WE think like normal people in that we want alternate energy so we're not screwing up other cultures or the environment, we want people to have access to food, water, clean living conditions, health care, education, and to be able to raise their kids in a clean happy environment, etc.. but we're the minority. The people / powers that run things only care about themselves and how much they can obtain. They are driven by GREED. How many times do you hear the words 'socialists' thrown around during elections? As if our tax dollars should be spent on MORE IMPORTANT things like the military, as opposed to making sure all americans have access to health care.. c'mon.. what's more important than the people in this country who are american? Isn't the govt supposed to take care of the people? Isn't that why we vote? Is the govt taking care of the people? Talk to people in other countries about the USA if you need to get a picture of how we're really viewed.. sure you can say 'ah screw them we're the USA'.. but don't forget.. CHINA owns us and that's not funny! I don't think I answered your question gabe but this is just an extra rant.. :) cb

Greedy politicians? Gee what a novel concept! What next? Honest lawyers?

Caught this today on Talking Points Memo. "Henry Crumpton, the outgoing State Department terror coordinator . . . [and] ex-CIA operative . . . told NEWSWEEK that a worldwide surge in Islamic radicalism has worsened recently, increasing the number of potential terrorists and setting back U.S. efforts in the terror war. "Certainly, we haven't made any progress," said Crumpton. "In fact, we've lost ground." He cites Iraq as a factor; the war has fueled resentment against the United States." Its not rocket science...

sorry dez, dont mean to keep hammering away at yer points, but evidently the death toll for Iraqi civilians was around 35,000 (with another 35,000 wounded). How many enemies do you think that will harvest?

those numbers are from last year.

civilian is a loose term in iraq.

Thats a very weak answer. Ok, lets say 15,000 are not really civilians. How many radicals do you think 20,000 civilian deaths would make?

20,000 dead civies that's 1,480,000 virgins!!!

LOL

Newsweek (this issue) has a big article on how we're creating the next generation of jihadists in iraq.. Craig

Virgins? LOL? I noticed you havnt answered the question, wussy boy.

to answer your question, it'll probably balance itself out. kill 20,000, create 20,000 assholes. that's why their "jihad" is so fruitless, they just break even. they'll fight for 300 years to end up worse off than they were when they started. i know ya'll are upset about the 3,000 dead u.s troops, and rightly so, of course, but i think me and a half dozen of my buddies could do more damage than that with a bunch of baseball bats and a pocket knife over a period of 4 years. the insurgency is a anemic, sad opposition. it's really a laughable bunch. what is making iraq a mess is the red tape at home, the lack of support of the american people who are all gung ho for a war until someone dies, the democrats, good god, the democrats. the most futile group of baby killing inept jackasses on earth. the democratic party is far more dangerous than any group of jihadists simply because they feel no need to defend their own freedoms. if you'd like your baby's head ripped off and thrown in a wastebasket, they're rarin to go. another thing that bugs me about iraq is the lack of brute force being used. didn't gerorge ay that if you aren't with us, then you are with the terrorists? didn't he say that anyone who harbors terrorists woul;d be considered as such? keep your word, george, nuke ramadi. the media needs to be removed from iraq. they can't handle the freedom. and... on what planet does it makes sense to telegraph your every move to your enemy? the insurgency has known for weeks now that 20,000 more troops are coming. the americans for some fucking idiotic reason feel they need to lay out everything on cnn before they do it. incredible. nancy pelosi ate my ass with peppermint bubble gum.

dez.. man... I can't even respond to that post it doesn't make sense.. all it reads like is a bunch of pent up frustration..! Democrats, republicans, polar bears, whatever! It's not about wussing out it's about fixing something stupid that never should have happend! We should have stayed and worried about Afghanastan not invaded Iraq who was already beat to shit because of the sanctions that were in place since 1992.. where are the chemical weapons? Where are the nukes?? what the fuck, over.. Now we have IRAN and North Korea who DO have nukes and WILL use them.. now what the fuck do we do? Do you think we can invade either one? Freaking North Korea has an army of over 1.3M (MILLION) as well as plenty of hardware.. AND nukes.. Iran.. same kind of deal.. they're not pansy ass beat to shit countries like Iraq was.. cb

the wmd's were hidden in syria and lebanon. as for korea and iran, nuke em.

Dez... I think I love you! Lets get together and build some bombs or something!! You can show me your toenail if ya want! The "special" one!

i'm not much for wiring, but i think i have some uranium kicking around here someplace.

FUCK BUSH! A FUCKING DRAFT DODGING EX COKEHEAD REDNECK WENT TO SCHOOL ON DADDY'S DIME INARTICULATE LYING FUCKIN PUPPET PIECE OF SHIT!! HERE'S MY NEW PLAN>>>SEND MORE SOLDIERS TO DIE FOR A WAR THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE STARTED!! AN OOPS IRAN IS BUYING SOME OF OUR PARTS ONLINE!! OOOPS!!! AND THEN HE HAVE A FUCKER LIKE THE VA SENATOR SAYING BLCAK PEOPLE SHOULD GET OVER SLAVERY!! WHO THE FUCK IS RUNNING THIS COUNTRY? A BUNCH OF FUCKING MORONS!!! IMPEACH THE BUSH!

i'm sensing some displeasure with the current administration. all governments are cocksuckers. george is simply the lesser of two evils.

Its probably more than displeasure with just the administration. I just cant get over the concept of "exporting democracy." It's a LOT arrogant to think democracy is right for everyone, especially a much more theocratic society. And let's face it, in a system of majority rule... the "majority" is not always right. Now we are coming to a point where the choices have become so diluted that you have to choose one of two parties to have any hope of a vote counting. As I see it, NEITHER party fully represents the REAL majority of reasonable, senisible people. Perhaps the Iraqis don't want a future of McFood and Wal-chain? For example: The "majority" shops at, and allows, Wal-store to continue to grow and bloat and squeeze small retailers to death. That does not make it 'right' by any stretch of the imagination. More power to them for having success with their system of increasing productivity and efficiency... But people tend to overlook the creative energy that such a system can drain, in favor of a cheap, low quality, product. (See my post on the "it's fun until it happens in YOUR town!" thread). I do practice (and cherish) my right to vote, but by no means do I think this system is perfect. I believe we should fix our own shit before forcing it on others. Get 'em home and don't send more. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." -Kandyman Joe www.pureimaginationtattoos.com www.kandymanjoe.com

"george is simply the lesser of two evils." Really, Dez? Cause he's the dumbfuck redneck that got us into this mess..

KANDYMAN JOE YOU ROCK!!!!! GET OUR TROOPS THE FUCK HOME!!!!

george didn't get us into this mess, his old man did by not finishing his job. plenty of blame for bill clinton, too.

As a nation we must insist upon new and different approches to our dealings in the mideast, we have failed there miserably for many years and unless our policies change very quickly it is only going to get worse. What business do we have trying to "save" a nation of people who hate us absolutely and hate us so deeply that they are willing to kill themselves just to kill a few of us? Doesn't that alone tell you that something is very wrong? The mideast has been perpetually in political and military turmoil. They have their values and we need to let them live as they choose. If they want to keep on killing each other then who the fuck are we to tell them they can't? Oh gee! I know why! Two things: they have a lot of oil and they hate the Iraelis! I say PULL OUR PEOPLE OUT and let Israel have em!! We are hated worldwide for our megalomaniacal policies of forcing our belief systems on other peoples, if they want to kill off their own countrymen in Darfur then let em!! If the Iraqis want to bomb their own then let em!!!!! We have enough problems right here in this country to solve, take all those billions of war dollars, increase OUR defenses with part of the money then improve OUR medical and educational systems right here Show them by example, by living well within our own borders! It won'r make a difference , those people will always hate us no matter what we do so at least spend those billions on our own people!!! Either that or make the whole area into a parking lot!!

how come muq'tada al sadr ain't dead yet?

Even if we adopted a "hsnds off' policy they would still hate us....even if we gave them billions ( oh yeah ...we do!!) they would still hate us! Fuck em, feed em beans!

Should have read "hands off"!

Oh boy, heres what I get for being busy and letting this crap get outta control... Get your drinks folks, this may be a long one. Dez says: "to answer your question, it'll probably balance itself out. kill 20,000, create 20,000 assholes. that's why their "jihad" is so fruitless, they just break even. they'll fight for 300 years to end up worse off than they were when they started. " For one, if they just break even, then in 300 years we will not have taken over their country and instilled a puppet government. So, er we would both be worse off then they were when we started and we would have lost... What do you expect, them to just greet us with flowers and roll over? Of course they are gonna fight back when we invade... I would if someone came here, I guess you would just roll over...? Besides the faulty logic, your clearly wrong. I guess you havnt been listening for the last few years. It was clearly predicted by many military and intelligence folks that invading Iraq would aid terrorist recruitment in a major way, alas we played right into Bin Laden's hand and gave him the best recruitment tool we could. We fucked up the invasion of a muslim country. Good Job neo-cons. Its amazing hearing them dodge responsibility and deny reality. But, I guess it makes sense when you see the profits they make.... Clearly, terrorist recruitment has skyrocketed because of our actions. Take your blinders off. Dez says: "i know ya'll are upset about the 3,000 dead u.s troops, and rightly so, of course, but i think me and a half dozen of my buddies could do more damage than that with a bunch of baseball bats and a pocket knife over a period of 4 years. the insurgency is a anemic, sad opposition. it's really a laughable bunch." Wow, I must have wax in my eyes. Did I read that correctly? You think you and six friends could kill more than 3,000 troops in 4 years? CNN 6-20-2005:"The insurgency in Iraq is "in the last throes," Vice President Dick Cheney says, and he predicts that the fighting will end before the Bush administration leaves office." have you been following the trends? I dont trust right wingers because their need to be right outweighs reality often in very dangerous ways. Dez says: "what is making iraq a mess is the red tape at home, the lack of support of the american people who are all gung ho for a war until someone dies," the alibilty for right winers to dodge responsibility is profounding. Its always someone elses fault, the buck gets passed back and forth and never stops. Spineless. For one, there were a lot of people who were not gung ho for an unnecessary war based on lies. Two, the buck stops with George and his crew. Responsibility for the war rests squarely on the president and his supporters shoulders. The one who called for the war. The one who made horrifyingly stupid policy and strategical errors right from the get go. for christs sake, the neocons got everything they wanted... all the money they want, all the policies they want, shit, even after the election they are still gonna get more troops(but not enough). The population is to blame my ass (though we all do have a responsibility for whats happening) the buck stops at the president and the ones who put him in power. Dez says: " the democrats, good god, the democrats. the most futile group of baby killing inept jackasses on earth. the democratic party is far more dangerous than any group of jihadists simply because they feel no need to defend their own freedoms. if you'd like your baby's head ripped off and thrown in a wastebasket, they're rarin to go." George has been taking away our freedoms moron! In any event, I thought it was the liberals that were supposed to be the angry type. Not for nothing, but George and his neocons are rich chicken hawks who have proven themselves inept at every step. Your tough guy talk falls short, no ones buy that shit anymore... well, i guess theres still 25-30%, but people are slowly but surely realizing eating bs for years now. you can only deny reality for so long. Now your right on some things, we will see if the democrats have the balls to listen to the people and stand up and fight for whats right every time. the population obviously want to see them do it... Dez says: "another thing that bugs me about iraq is the lack of brute force being used. didn't gerorge ay that if you aren't with us, then you are with the terrorists? didn't he say that anyone who harbors terrorists woul;d be considered as such? keep your word, george, nuke ramadi." wow, you are delusional. Dez says: "the media needs to be removed from iraq. they can't handle the freedom." Are you fucking kidding me??? You jackass, we need MORE journalists documenting whats going on, the war over there is our (and in part my) responsibility and I want to see EVERYTHING. for chirsts sake, I didnt realize you loved and trusted the government so much. I dont trust them one bit, show me everything. the only people that are scared of journalists are those scared of the truth. Also, two seconds ago you were mocking democrats for not defending freedom and here you are attacking it. Embrace it dez, its called hypocrisy at its finest. puke. Means you lack character. Dez says: "and... on what planet does it makes sense to telegraph your every move to your enemy? the insurgency has known for weeks now that 20,000 more troops are coming. the americans for some fucking idiotic reason feel they need to lay out everything on cnn before they do it. incredible." You moron, what they are laughing at is the number, 20,000. Even by the military handbook they are a few hundred thousand troops short to get control of Bagdad. Dez says: "the wmd's were hidden in syria and lebanon. as for korea and iran, nuke em." And who has proof of this? I guess some people will believe anything... And wait, you really want to nuke people? or are you just being a thick headed tough guy? Dez says: "george didn't get us into this mess, his old man did by not finishing his job. plenty of blame for bill clinton, too." So clinton has plenty to blame for this mess and George W didnt get us into it... amazing. At least George Bush the first was smart enough to know when enough was enough. I really cant imagine why the right wingers always try to take blame off the guy responsible... oh, right, cause then they would be accepting the same blame cause they support him... Ah well, hopefully many will learn their lesson... Dez says: "how come muq'tada al sadr ain't dead yet?" Well, until today he was under the protection of the president, indeed Maliki stopped the americans from going into their neighborhoods a few weeks back. In any event, I believe we are sending in 20,000 troops to go after him... no? Phew, sorry bout that, but hey...

some nice ad hominem, gabe. the sign of a desperate man. you question my character? i think you just revealed yours. i'm done with trying to keep this sinking ship afloat. best of luck.

Ill keep it short and to your points. The republican platform is based on ad hominem arguments, because the facts dont add up. that said, I question the character of anyone who contradicts themselves in the same paragraph while calling for nuclear war. When people question my character I dont run away, I answer the charges. I guess I believe in what I say and am not scared the truth wont back me up. My character has never been shielded or hidden. Honestly Dez, with all your tough talk I didnt take you as the kinda guy who wouldnt back up their words. I think that says more about your character than any contradictions or delusional statements I pointed out. To me this seems like you can dish it out but cant take it. In any event, with you gone I guess this sinking ship's bow will go under any day, just ask the others who predicted our imminent doom. Im going to have to start giving away more ads just to fool the people... Welp, best of luck to you Dez, its been fun. You know your more than welcome back anytime. If you talk shit, though, best back it up.

here here Gabe! I'll miss reading your posts Dez, I enjoy your sense of humor. My point is that BOTH parties have proven "inept" and waffled against their own ideology. Republicans, who are supposed to be about states rights, less government, and conservative spending... have shifted to a doctrine of government control, uncontrollable spending (on war), and proselytizing democracy in other countries probably not suited for it. This is hard for me to swallow, as I consider myself fiscally conservative. Democrats, on the other hand have been known to exercise the right to strongly protest (even if their wrong on an issue)... Now roll over for elections they rightfully won. I wonder if the newly elected dems will stand ground and unite. Or, will they roll over on issues like civil rights and privacy being taken away in favor of the so called "greater good"? They used to fight for the working man, yet somehow let the dollar signs of globalization and "free trade" fog the fact that people at home are losing livelihoods to cheap labor/products abroad. That is more important, I think, than banning firearms. Sure, there are problems with being an armed nation... but c'mon... I'm fairly certain one reason America hasn't been invaded is because the average guy here is armed to the teeth. What happened to "walk softly and carry a big stick"? Freedom of choice should be just that. If you are for a woman's freedom of choice, it is hypocritical (as a party) to deny another's personal freedom to choose be armed, or smoke a cigarette. This is hard for me to swallow because I believe in personal freedom at all levels, until it impedes another's ability to enjoy those freedoms. Any thoughts? Are there any viable, reasonable, alternatives that don't cause loss of the right to vote or our democracy? (I know the answer to this for myself, I curious to see if anyone out there thinks along the same lines.) Seriously, don't get me started about party affiliations with religion and the so called seperation of church and state. -KMJ

Great posts Gabe.. The other thing that is not being mentioned is that up until last election republicans have controlled both the house and senate.. there have been NO checks and balances to what the president is doing.. subsequently is setup torture chambers in foreign countries, spied on us domestically, took away our rights through the patriot act, watched everyones financial transactions, setup a secret court to try people (who don't even get to see there accusers), and God knows what else...Iraq is the tip of the iceberg of the shit this guys done.. last I saw he was talking about expanding the role of the military in domestic surveilence.. THAT'S AGAINST THE F*CKING CONSTITUTION..! He's clueless!! Anyone supporting this guy has to be a moron.. I can't imagine how anyone could be so blind as to ignore what he's done to the country not just in the terms of destorying our military, our economy, our manufacturing base, and a billion other things.. he's the counter-part to Gorbechev who destroyed the soviet union, he's destroying the USA.. instead of bending our might to advancing civilization we're running around re-inacting the crusades with modern weapons.. Craig Craig