Old Out-Dated Nasty Equipment

Yes I’m going to Rant, I have been having an ongoing battle with my artist. Starting at the first of the year I want the studio to be 100% disposable, You would have thought I placed their hands on an anvil and hit it with a 5 pound hammer !!! IMO there is just no argument for stainless steel in this new century, I mean they make disposable in all the forms they do steel. The only thing you have to over come is the weight, Man you would think professional artist would want to grow & evolve. There is just no reason to continue on with “ used “ equipment ! To me there is nothing more disgusting than a sink full of dirty tubes, I don’t care how many times you wash them I don’t care how many spore test the autoclave passes that is still a used tube ! Yes this is a Rant but its also an Important Issue at least in my studios it is, How could anyone especially artist complain about being clean ? Stainless steel tubes are out-dated an nasty.

I'll see your rant and raise you a rant...lol Do you tattoo? I am just asking, and my response following is under the assumption that you dont. Ive been tattooing a fairly long time and have used both stainless and disposable tubes. Dont get me wrong, there are certain things that work better with disposables, like when doing "white work". But i would never stop using steel. the weight difference isnt much,at least for me because i use pencil grips, but its not really about the feel of them. There are strokes and effects that are better acheived by steel. Steel lines flow differently than disposable lines. yeah, theyre similar, but thats my point.-you get a different look with different equiptment. Same goes with machines. Steel tubes are reusable because they can be safely cleaned and autoclaved. Why not then just use one-use machines, clip cords, and power units then, because of airbourne contamination?? Theres an emotional tie to steel as well. The pioneers of the tattooing world worked with steel. Its still a part of the past,present and future of tattooing. Taking it away could kindof be like saying the masters had it wrong. Its a respect thing for our predecessors, every old-schooler we look up to. This is all in my opinion of course.

Yes, I started out with steel then I worked a high volume shop in 94 using the first disposable tubes and after a little getting used too it was by far the best tube in my opinion. For the very few times after this period that I did go back to stainless was to avoid having to keep stock. ( Pure Laziness ) I find any technique that I can do with steel can be duplicated using disposable, Hell I’ve seen work in magazines done with Ink pens that mocked techniques done with professional tubes. You say you would never quit using steel and I received the same response from a few artist and I told them like this “ If the laws of the law changed that only disposable can be used in this industry, Would you conform or rebel ? “ That is a very real possibility, In my studio starting Jan. 1 it is reality. We do cover our clip cords & machine heads with protective film yet we reuse the same tube over & over again, Makes no sense to me. No ones saying the masters were wrong they were working with what they had, If they were still active in the industry I’m sure they would agree that new is cleaner than used. As far as emotional to the past, Most “artist” have no respects for the past, most don’t respect their mentors once they achieve a clientele. Thanks for your Rant but just like my Crew I find no reason within your post for Modern Tattooing to keep this one Leg in the Past.

I'm not a tattoo artist yet but ive worked in a machine shop before and my personal experience is that plastic is much more prone to tiny imperfections in its casting process and because you cant exactly file it or put it on a lathe eliminating those imperfections without breaking the thing would be very tricky. as for cleanliness, when you buy disposables you still have no idea if theyre sterile or not. your just assuming they are because the supplier and the package says so. who knows what kind of mishaps could happen in the creating and packaging process of disposables what possible contaminations might have occured. from a customers point of view, (especially having a couple friends who are nurses and have told me horror stories) I'd much rather an artist use what he himself personally sterilized rather than something he took a leap of faith on being sterilized.

...and thank you for responding very eloquently and professional, and not attacking me. : ) Yes, unfortunately nowadays some newbies to the profession seem to have little to no respect for the greats who have done so much for tattooing. I see that kind of attitude all the time, and it makes me sad. I'll have to rant about that in another post. Anywho, i guess with me, its a personal preference as well. I like the feel of steel. heh heh Wow, that sounded kind of bad. Like i said above, i do like using disp. at times ,and i cant argue with some specific pros about them. Are you planning on switching to pneumatic machines? Id think you'd have a real arguement on your hands then!!!!! If i HAD to go all disp. if laws changed, of course then id have to..(but it would be kicking and screaming) LOL.

I try never to attack, I’d like to think I respect others. I Remember the prototype Pneumatic machines some years ago, And yes I seriously considered the change as the hype was intense but after some studying about compressed air & condensation I felt it impracticable not to mention the argument like you said from artist who refuse to evolve. LOL Dutchman When the first plastic tube came on the market we had to cut the ends off because of the extra material left from the process and yes some was useable. But believe me things have changed each tube is as perfect as the one before it and on the slight chance you get a bad one its only 79 cents you toss it in the trash and grab a new one. I would believe your odds of one of the thousands of artist mucking up the sterliation procress is way greater than a couple of multi-million dollar companies. Also if the company mocks up they couldn’t hide the fact like an artist who would just travel to a new area carrying on with his used tubes.

Some of the artists in our studio use disposables, most use steel. As long as the artist is clean they can tattoo with whatever makes them comfortable at our studio. As an aside, one of our booths has an air compressor hose coming up from the basement for the neumatic machines if artists use them.

Neener Neener Neener Off the Map Tattoo operates on used equipment………J/K No but really artist reusing tubes are the same ones who snarl the lip at reusing needles, What’s the difference other than needles dull after time.

they do get dull but ,actually needles tend to get sharper over time ......from rubbing on the tube ,they turn to little razors

I understand your feelings for disposable tubes. Its the same reason we use new needles each time, this client feels safer knowing that most of our equipment is single service/diposable. But fact is that there is a different feel to using disposables, in comparison to stainless. I use both, Stainless at home, and disposables on the road. I use the disposables on the road because of the weight issue when traveling, and not wanting to come home with biohazard. There is a big difference in there use and feel. I won't say that it effects my actual tattooing. But there is a bit more stress on me when using them. I do need to change a few things when I work. And fact is that's sort of unnecessary stress. Stress you shouldn't have to deal with on the road. And to say that Stainless reusable tubes are out of date. Tell that to your dentist next time he takes that stainless steel pick too your teeth. There's not much of a difference. If your comfortable with disposables that's cool, but I think to force your employees to switch, when it could very well change the way they work. Well, that just seems a bit unfair... Just my opinion JOE

Hey Joe Nice to read ya……. If the customer feels safer knowing “ Most “ of our equipment is disposable, Just think how safe they would be if is 100% disposable. Even you agree that reusing a needle is no more than reusing a tube only the customer feels better about it. Yes as a artist the feel is different but so is a new pair of shoes, I know the stress your talking about I believe that comes from switching back & forth. I find if I tune my Machines bend my needles bars to only disposable until it became a habit the stress was removed, After a year of that you would find the stress only when returning to the stainless. Any professional artist can learn to use disposable, I don’t think its unfair at all to make my business the cleanest, safest, most modern tattooing available to the public. If the shop owners don’t do it then who will, the artist ? Seems to me most artist refuse to give up the equipment that is now antique & obsolete . Come on Gabe join me in Pushing Up the Industry, Let’s make these guys evolve in this century where new is clean & used is used. LOL Of course I’m joking I do respect the opinion of others to operate in about any manner. But me being the studio owner overrides the artist representing my studio. This thread so far proves there is no logical or practicable reason that a studio in this century is still operating with used equipment. As always this is just my public opinion.

Gotta disagree with ya there. Fact is if your going to the extent of disposing of both Tubes, and needles, than why not Machines, Clip cords. and spray bottles. The exact argument can be used against those, and fact is Our machines are not autoclavable. Just wipeable. Again to say out dated, Nasty, antique, whatever, is just plain silly. Things are autoclaved for a reason. And again a Dentist, someone in the medical profession autoclaves probably 1/2 of what is used on you during a typical procedure. I don't see any difference. If you've a problem with tubes kickin around in an ultra sonic, or with simply cleaning your gear, than fine. But don't try to make the rest of us sound like neanderthals for doing what were used to, and know to be not only sanitary, but standard procedure. JOE

I don’t mind that you disagree, Troubling to me is that no one can give a good argument for steel except that it is “ What you are used to “ That’s not a very good reason IMO. I don’t know the density industry, I know that if one was to argue for reusing equipment they would also have to agree there isn’t much need in a new needle every time. It isn’t practical to replaced Machine heads, Clip cords & bottles at this stage of our industries supply, But if and when that ever does happen will the change over be hard headed as Neanderthals. Neanderthals Now that’s funny…… But it is a good reference. See the sanitary part varies from artist to artist, Knowing the standard is to reuse equipment the sanitary part could be in question. Maybe the standard should be up-dated or at the very least reviewed. Nah we’ll wait for APT or the Government to adopt this practice then it’ll be just another band wagon. When the industry switched over to single needle use hardly no one complained. Know why ? Because needle making was a pain in the ass. Plastic Tubes on the other hand have to be bought & stocked making them a pain in the ass, Seems to me artist are lazy. If one was too lazy to order a supply of tubes, Do you really trust him to work hard at cleaning the dirty equipment ?

Just because your disposables are "new" doesnt at all make them any safer than a steel tube thats been autoclaved. Before your disposable is autoclaved it was just as open to being contaminated. what i find a bit troubling is that it almost sounds like you think autoclaves dont work. When the fact is that if they didnt work wed have been fucked a long long time ago seeing as doctors wouldnt be able to operate with sterile intruments. The fact is disposables are no more sterile than a steel tip thats been used and sterilized. hence the word sterilized. I'd rather an artist know what he's doing in terms of sterilization and what not rather than lazing out and placing a firm belief in what comes in the mail is going to be sterilized.

Dutch I suggest you learn the difference between Blood borne Pathogens & Airborne before you start arguing sterilization.

UPDATE: After just 4 weeks all the artist agree new is cleaner. Each and everyone over came the weight of a lighter tube, Not one of them claims to return to nasty equipment ever. Our Lives and Studio is cleaner & healthier for the change. Pushing up the industry sometimes means evolving before the government makes you.

I am currently tattooing outside the US and the only way I could have made that possible was thanks to disposable tubes. Yes after using steel it takes me like about an hour to get used to them, but I am very happy knowing that I don't have biohazard around me. I am planning to use them more often, although they are not cheap at all, lexan tubes are like 50 cents a pop or more. Some times I use 5 tubes per tattoo. The cost adds up easily, but when it comes to client's safety there is no bitching. I am sure tubes will start being made of better plastic and better tip finish, until now the lexan "tip finish" really suck. I use 1" grip don't know if any other manufacture makes them any bigger (talking about disposable). Disposables is a new valid approach, but if you are so concern about disposing elements, make sure you cover tattoo machine (there is always a need to touch something in the machine), tattoo clipcord "both, clip and jack" tattoo power supply, wear a disposable overall, and every time you stop the machine to prepare something, or pour ink, change cloves. A good autoclaved tip/tube/grip is as sterile as a disposable one.

I have been thinking this over Josey and as much as I dislike agreeing with the "KING" I am seriously thinking of changing our shop to all disposable tubes also...The newer disposable tubes are much better in quality and feel than the first ones that came out...the actual tips seem to be better.....and at what under 50 cents per tube even if ya use 5 tubes per customer ...thats still cheap!!...Now until someone starts making the larger mag tubes in disposables I will have to stick with the stainless for the big ones like 45 mags etc etc! I'm sure they will be out soon with so many people seeing what people like Josh Carlton can do with those monster configurations!!

Josey there were plenty of reasons given to you as to why we prefer steel over disposable..you just wouldn't accept the reasons... 1. plastic is flimsy and doesn't hold the weight of the machine as good as steel... 2. most artists feel confident in knowing that they are using equipment that THEY themselves have sterilized and not relying on some strange mysterious factory worker to do it for them. 3. a tattoo shop without an autoclave is frowned upon in this industry... 4. Not wanting to clave your equipment is just lazy... i agree with joe..You trust your dentist with claved equipment...what's the difference? you think that when you go to a hospital and get surgery done that they use brand new equipment every time.? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that most of it is claved as well....

regarding dentists, nail salons, etc. I can tell you that they cant even come up as close as a tattoo shop. Let me know how many times you have seen your dentist pull his tools out of a clave pouch in front of your face, bag cover the tools, use barrier film for everything they touch ( oh yes when you get there the lamp has the barrier film...ask him if he just changed it) Look around, is there anything he is touching that's no cover. Does he wear a mouth mask? Despite the fact that most dentist still think that heated air claves are safe. Nail salons...I don't even bother going there, that was one of the reasons why my fiance stop pursuing the nail artist career. In the other hand, agreed with Legacy, you cannot operate without a clave, there're bottles, wrenches and some other elements/ tools need to be sterilize. Cover your machine, clipcord, power unit, wiping it with alcohol or clorox wipes doesn't do much. Change gloves every time you need to. I wish I can autoclave my machines after every tattoo, I am a sterile whore!

[Quote] Josey there were plenty of reasons given to you as to why we prefer steel over disposable..you just wouldn't accept the reasons... 1. plastic is flimsy and doesn't hold the weight of the machine as good as steel... 2. most artists feel confident in knowing that they are using equipment that THEY themselves have sterilized and not relying on some strange mysterious factory worker to do it for them. 3. a tattoo shop without an autoclave is frowned upon in this industry... 4. Not wanting to clave your equipment is just lazy... To Reply: 1. The plastic isn’t “ flimsy” it plenty firm for the job its doing, Unless your planning on tossing it across the tattoo room with a machine head on it. 2. Disposables never come to you as biohazard and never has been biohazard, Your fears are unwarranted. 3. LMAO 4. Not wanting to stock up on disposables supplies is lazy. So you prefer using used biohazard rather then new disposables, Got Ya. LOL @ agreeing with the King, But to be serious switching to disposable is a decision you’ll not regret. Of course if they aren’t making the big stuff like 45`s you’ll have no choice but to work with what is available. I still believe not one good reason has been posted as to keep using biohazard equipment, Other than what Taz mentioned.

I tend to agree with Joe.

National is coming out with a new line of disposable, I hope they are a bit better than Lexan and whatever else is available. Some member mention on our board that it would be ideal to cme up with a line of disposable that has a metal injected tip. How cool would that be! It makes me want to have the funds to produce them. I am sure they would be more expensive as regular ones. In the other hand making better tips (specially mags) would be a fair solution. Right now they are all the same tip cut (45º), I would like to see open mag tips option with disposables.

Better tips and maybe some heavier material ifused into the grip so they would approximate the wieght of metal tubes...ceramic maybe?