OT: Hey Gabe

Whatd you think of Obamas speech on race today? He has his flaws and he wasnt my first canidate of choice, but dear lord is that man a brilliant orator, wouldnt it be nice to have a president capable of that level of intelligent dialogue for a change? If there was any fairness in the universe Gore or Feingold would have run. But Obama's looking better and better every day. As for Clinton I was rather indifferent to her campaign until Mark Penn reared his ugly head into it, and things started getting all nasty. What are your thoughts on Clintons alluding to trying to sway not only super-delegates but pledged delegates. Also do you think the democratic party would be ripped to shreds if the superdelegates chose Hillary as the nominee over Obama despite his insurmountable lead in delegates, his likely winning of the popular vote and winning far more states? I'm rather curious as whats going to happen, as there isnt much i'd be surprised by.

I didnt see Obamas speech tonight, but read the teasers about it in the headlines yesterday and couldn't muster much energy for the race speech. Barrack is an incredible speaker, there is no doubt about it. I think the power of his speech comes from the fact that it is honest. He has a real power to gather people and effect positive change. Whether he does it or not I dont know, but as far as I can tell he has everything it takes. I was a fan of Obamas since the famous speech at the convention, though, I admit Kuchnich was my top choice. I think Obama has near everything necessary to take the presidency, and I think he he can be pushed into near perfection if given the proper support. For all intents and purposes, he is who I would endorse for presidency right now, and he would have my trust (till he betrays it). Clinton would be a repeat of Clinton I imagine, That would mean that the money would flow to the middle class a lot more than it does now, and a much better foreign policy, but not perfect. While we could perhaps persuade Obama to drop NAFTA and other corperist agendas, I think the corporations are baggage that comes along with the Clintons, though a littler milder than McCain... So, we would get a better balanced budget, a little more dough in our pockets, but still the same old system in place to the advantage of the corperatest agenda. I would vote for Clinton over McCain any day of the week (though I suppose november 2nd would be the only day that counts, ha). But I think her campaign is weaker, and is resorting to tactics that are weaker in the long run. Obama is someone who can really effect, and more importantly WANTS to effect drastic positive change. I think the democratic party has been a freaking incompetent mess for years, but maybe less of a mess than the republicans. I mean how incompetent must you be to lose when you have truth and justice on your side???? Ha, just kidding, kinda.... I really like Howard Dean, and I like what hes doing for the party, thoguh, Florida and Michigan are a mess and cant believe the party fucked things up in those states like they did. Extremely embarrassing, though, much less that getting us into this war and tanking our economy and such, obviously. Well, maybe they are getting it together a bit more, at least thesedays, maybe. I do think a lot of this drama is being caused by the media, and in the end the real story is how much money the democrats are getting, and from the sources. I like to always "follow the money" and I like where its coming from in Obamas campaign. Smaller donations from a larger amount of sources, obviously a stronger position to be in. Now, corperate interests can spend a lot of money on McCain, and Clinton, so we will see what happens. how do you feel?

What "great" things has Obama done in the senate? you think a man is qualified to run the UNITED STATES of AMERICA with about 5 years in the senate? He was only a community activist before that and you want to hand this guy the country because he is an excellent speech writer? what are you people smoking? OH by the way its a well known fact that he has "friends" who are terrorists or have terrorist ties....yeah let's give him the president's job. Also to affect my point the president of the USA is also supposed to be a man of action...not a man of merely words. forget about hillary too by the way. Holy shit...she is an EVIL woman who will step on/ over ANYONE that gets in her way. The both of these canidates are jokes. They have NOT proved themselves throught any measure of success in the senate and DO NOT deserve or have the proper qualifications to run a COUNTRY! By merely being an incredible uplifting speaker or just married to a former president DOES IN NO WAY qualify one to run this country.

my bad....10 years in senate.

The impression I get is that Obama will be more of the Peoples president. I think the policies and agendas he put forward would very much be in line with public opinion. Which is a very nice thing as it means we'd have more of say as to how he would run his presidency. I get the very opposite opinion from Clinton. I think she would be semi-liberal in some respects, but would very much be controlled by coporate and political influence. It's as you say follow the money. I think its rather telling that shes "loaned" 5 million dollars to her campaign. Where she expects to be paid back for it is beyond me. Also where it came from is of particular interest. What I love most about Obamas campaign is how much of a grass roots effort it is. It's very reminiscent of Deans 04' campaign which I was a great fan of. That hes already won 29 states is rather telling as to how effective it is. And like you said much more of Obamas campaign is being financed by small donations.

obama is a silver tongued fraud. it pains me that he's been able to hoodwink so many.

nostrildamus i agree sir.

Fine then, which of the canidates left do you feel are the better options i'm curious?

Honestly, all three canidates bring things to the table that will put America in the shitter. The question is how far in the shitter are you willing to go? I think that out of the three canidates that are left John McCain will be the one who will fuck us the least. I like his views about the war. I think we should stay until we feel its safe for the people of Iraq to pull out. I agree with what he says about not setting a DATE for a pullout...to set a date to pull out is like a scheduled defeat for us. I agree 100% with Mitt Romney's plan that says we should set milestones and goals. When these goals are met, one by one, we bring home troops slowly and accordingly to assure our security over here. Think about it this way...if we pull out too hastily and get the crap bombed out of us will the economy matter? will all of the illegal immigrants matter? all of that other shit comes secondary to the war. If you have a secure nation i.e. no wars, foreign or domestic, then you can worry about conducting business on the homeland. If you have an unstable country that has a war going on it's own turf then you really can't concentrate on getting our economy back on its feet. I really liked Ron Paul but he didn't have a prayer. Ideally I would've liked to have seen Mitt Romney be our next president. BUT regardless of who your individual choice is to be the next president just remember....they are ALL still double talking politicians and not one of them can be trusted 100%. IF our fore fathers were around now they would bitch slap all of these politicians, republicans and democrats, for all of the bullshit these assholes pull behind closed doors.

"Honestly, all three canidates bring things to the table that will put America in the shitter. The question is how far in the shitter are you willing to go? I think that out of the three canidates that are left John McCain will be the one who will fuck us the least." Mccain has said that he'll keep troops in Iraq for 100 years if thats what it took. He's also expressed interest in attacking Iran as well. That fucks us quite a great deal. Not too mention the people in Iraq, who are dying by the hundreds of thousands as a result of our pointless war. " I like his views about the war. I think we should stay until we feel its safe for the people of Iraq to pull out. I agree with what he says about not setting a DATE for a pullout...to set a date to pull out is like a scheduled defeat for us." Safe for the Iraqi people? Things arent going to be safe for Iraqi people for quite a while. Theyre going through a civil war, one which has nothing to do with us. Nor can we do anything about. As it would involve picking sides. I'm sorry but middle eastern governments havent shown much common sense in terms of compromise. When in history has the U.S. ever had success when fiddling around with other countries governments? Remember Noriega? Or how about when we trained Bin Laden and his men and supplied them with weapons in order to repel communists. "I agree 100% with Mitt Romney's plan that says we should set milestones and goals. When these goals are met, one by one, we bring home troops slowly and accordingly to assure our security over here. Think about it this way...if we pull out too hastily and get the crap bombed out of us will the economy matter? will all of the illegal immigrants matter? all of that other shit comes secondary to the war. If you have a secure nation i.e. no wars, foreign or domestic, then you can worry about conducting business on the homeland." The only wars were involved in now are the ones we willingly started. The reason why we were attacked on 9/11 is because we refuse to stop dicking around in the middle east. We've injected ourselves into their politics and because of it we've been the target of an enormous amount of anger. And until were completely out of there, that resentment is never going to go away, its only going to grow. Theres also the fact that engaging in this pointless war has made this country far less safe, look at the facts, our military is being exhausted. We've sent large amounts of the National Guard to the middle east. Spent hundreds of billions of dollars on this war. And now weve reached the point where we are now bribing various factions in Iraq not to kill us. Funding them for the next fight. Its ludicrous. I would also very much like to lay something to rest. Yes we were attacked on 9/11 not by anyone we could wage a war against. You might as well have attempted to waged a war against all white people living in Oklahoma after the Oklahoma City bombings. Lets get this straight were not over in Iraq killing Al-qaeda anymore, were over in Iraq killing Iraqis. All the various factions struggling to gain control of country make up around 98% of the people were fighting over there. Think of it like this. Imagine during the U.S. Civil War if Britian showed up and said "Well it seems we were right and you guys don't know what you're doing so we'll just go ahead and decide things for you and install our own system of government there." Do you think either the Confederacy or the Union would have reacted well to that? Do you think that they might of been so infuriated that they might even ignore each other and focus their efforts on Britian? Do you understand that right now our very presence is uniting people against the U.S. And that if we were hoping to eradicate Al-Qaeda weve done just the opposite, this war has proven a wonderful recruitment tool for Al-qaeda. There numbers are larger than they ever were. And even more Ironic is that if were to pull out of Iraq, Iraqis would go after Al-qaeda themselves, they dont want them there any more than we do. "If you have an unstable country that has a war going on it's own turf then you really can't concentrate on getting our economy back on its feet. I really liked Ron Paul but he didn't have a prayer. Ideally I would've liked to have seen Mitt Romney be our next president. BUT regardless of who your individual choice is to be the next president just remember....they are ALL still double talking politicians and not one of them can be trusted 100%. IF our fore fathers were around now they would bitch slap all of these politicians, republicans and democrats, for all of the bullshit these assholes pull behind closed doors." I honestly dont understand how people who say they care about America do their best to elect people who are causing its destruction.

all politicians are cocksuckers. the least evil of this crop of shitbags is mccain, and that's only by a cunt hair.

Mccain!!!!!!! I'm sorry but you guys are in some other fucking dimension apparently. Every prediction, every assertion and promise the Republican party has made in terms of foreign policy has been proven as dead wrong or just a flat out fucking lie. The pentagon recently released a report stating that Saddam Hussein nor Iraq were in ANY way connected to Al-Qaeda.They went over endless amounts of Husseins documents, and would you care to hear what was found, that not only did Saddam have no connections to Al-Qaeda, but that the idea of joining up with them had been floated, and he rejected it. Flat out rejected it, wanted nothing to do with them. He was worried they might attempt to overthrow his government. That means every time Rumsfeld, or Bush, or Cheney, or any other republican made the claim that there was a connection between Iraq and Al-Qaeda, they were lying. Balls out fucking LYING. I'm still waiting for those fucking WMD's as well. Perhaps you can shed some insight as to where they might be. Now lets move onto Mccain. He's recently made the false statement that Iran is training Al-Qaeda and sending them into Iraq. Which is dead-wrong. And he continues to make this misstatement. Or hows about when he made the bullshit claim that an American could take a leisurely stroll outside of the green zone should they so desire. And then when called out on said bullshit comment he attempted to refute the criticisms, by taking a leisurely stroll through an Iraqi street...........Surrounded by a whole squadron of troops, military vehicles and two helicopters. He's all but promised to invade Iran. Anyone catch when he when fucking nutty and started singing Bomb Bomb Iran to the tune of Barbara Ann. And even more nutty was that he was getting cheered and applauded by his audience. Or hows about his coming out against the U.S. using torture, and then this year voting against a bill banning its use in interrogations. This is a man who was himself tortured to the point in which he did renounce the U.S. and his mission. Which i'm by no means trying to insinuate he's a pussy or anything. I'm just saying that if anyone knows what the horrors of torture can make a person do its fucking Mccain. If anyone knows that torture, is hardly a way to gain effective or factual intel its Mccain. That he voted to allow the U.S. to use torture is just insanity. So yea I really just don't at all understand how anyone can look at the republicans track record, and say hey I want some more of this. Not too mention Mccains and not want to run in the opposite fucking direction. Just boggles the mind. He's flat out said his presidency would just be four more years of Bush style politics. How can anyone look at the current state of affairs and want that.

{Some} well made points.None of the candidates that have made it this far or the ones that didn't give/gave me any real hope.I feel like the only thing that will change the current state of porking is a civil war.The people of this country against the government that is. Who is Chuck Norris endorsing now?Sigh.

I'd be down for a civil war, although I don't imagine it would be much of a war. I think as long as the number of people who wanted to overthrow the government was large enough, what exactly could they do. I mean think about it, if a large portion of the population wanted to change the system of government. The government couldnt do jack shit about it. Its THE founding prinicples that this country rests on. Both the constitution and the declaration of independence explicitly state that citizens revolting against their government is one of our inalienable rights. Again its absurd how easy it would be to change so much, if only people would actually be willing to sacrifice a bit, and put in the dedication. But from what I've seen society has proven far too lazy and apathetic to ever do whats required to actually affect a change. Its pretty fucking pathetic.

it's funny to me that a human being in this day and age can be so fucking stupid as to assume something never happed because there's no paperwork on it. tell me something, everytime you hacks masturbate on your pc, cheat on your girls, or kick a stray dog, do you write it down?? idiots.

When I have headspace for politics, I take note of what people say, and then keep track of what they do. In the case of the three candidates left, I dont like what McCain says at all (its insane, we KNOW these policies dont work for the majority of Americans, just take a peek at your checkbook!), dont like a lot of what Clinton says, and agree with most of what Barrack says. Now, when you look at voting records, McCain is obviously a corporate stooge (His campaign manager is a Lobbyist for christ's sake!), Clinton is adequate, and Barracks voting record isnt as strong as his talk, he lacks the balls to vote the right way *every* time, just most of it. BUT if we can get him into power with a friendly senate and house, then I believe he can be pushed into voting the way he thinks. If you look at the amount of experience other presidents had in the past, Barracks youth is not all that unique. If you look at the experience McCain and Clinton have, its experience dancing with corporate interests and lobbyists. I dont want that experience in the white house at all, its corrupt! Hairpie, Pray tell, why do you put the word friends in quotes, and please explain yourself. If your re-hashing the paranoia that Hannity fuels, then I have to question your use of the word terrorist, and how you are misleading people you talk to. But before I respond, please clarify! while of course the president needs to take action, its a position where you need a LOT more than merely action. I mean, Bush was voted in as a "man of action" and look where thats gotten us! While Barrack may be young, he is a man of (seemingly) integrity who has proven he can amass a large chunk of the population to push in the same direction. He is proving himself a leader who can bring out people to support him even in the "reddest" of states. He is getting his power from a large majority of people, not a few corporate interests spending lots of money. If someone can speak their mind about strengthening the country, and amass the people behind him, well, then, thats the kinda leader Im looking for. I dont buy that old people like McCain or Clinton are better suited to run the country, lots of old people, and these two in question, aren't telling me or voting in a way telling me they have my best interests at heart, so Ill believe them. If Barrack gets elected and doesnt fight for the people who put him there, then he wont get in again... In my opinion, the damage control IS getting Obama into the white house, as clinton and even worse, McCain, are corporatists who dont have our best interests in mind (though, clinton maybe more so than McCain). obama is a silver tongued fraud. it pains me that he's been able to hoodwink so many. Lordy, your talking about hoodwinked after Bush got elected two times? Funny! ...they are ALL still double talking politicians and not one of them can be trusted 100%. IF our fore fathers were around now they would bitch slap all of these politicians, republicans and democrats, for all of the bullshit these assholes pull behind closed doors. this I will agree with, though, I also think Romney is a crazed maniac, he said that his sons helping him campaign was what kept them from joining the war their father support, how patriotic, er I mean pathetic. Hotspark, why wouldnt Obama give you any hope, he is a change from the same old same old...? And I hope your joking about taking your cues from Norris! ha. while Paul's libertarian philosophy is nice on the surface, the government exists to protect and give its population opportunity which makes a stronger country... Dismantling everything creates a weaker country and population by definition! Nos, you said: it's funny to me that a human being in this day and age can be so fucking stupid as to assume something never happed because there's no paperwork on it. tell me something, everytime you hacks masturbate on your pc, cheat on your girls, or kick a stray dog, do you write it down?? idiots. Im wondering what you are talking about? Of course we know there are plenty of things that dont get written down, especially when the administration closes the door and tells us we cann't listen! I guess Im asking who you are calling stupid and idiots and why, its kinda unclear.... Ok, At the end of my political and philosophical strategy, I believe 100% that educating our population is the strongest path to a better country regardless of left right or center. If I had one issue that would be it. And there is no question whether McCain will continue to cut and hurt education, and clinton may not be far behind. There is no doubt that Barrack will help the education system the most, so to me the choice is clear, even though it may not be perfect.

here gabe...i hope this clears up my past post in which I said barrack has "friends" that are or have terrorist ties....http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57231

the group is called the Weather Underground and Barrack's ties with this radical group have been cleverly hidden away and pushed aside by the media.

"Hotspark, why wouldnt Obama give you any hope, he is a change from the same old same old...? And I hope your joking about taking your cues from Norris! ha. while Paul's libertarian philosophy is nice on the surface, the government exists to protect and give its population opportunity which makes a stronger country... Dismantling everything creates a weaker country and population by definition! " Yes,you should relize my sarcasm by now.While I claim that I don't feel all that fuzzy about any candidate,I agree Obama (sp?) is our best bet right now.More later ;)

the group is called the Weather Underground and Barrack's ties with this radical group have been cleverly hidden away and pushed aside by the media. Well, about the "ties". The group was active in the 1960-70's and the person who Obama worked alongise is now Professor of Education at the University of Illinois at Chicago. And the article says that Ayers gave, gasp, 200$ for Obamas campaing. WOW. And Rashid Khalidi. This what wikipedia says Allegations of PLO connections In July 2004, a Washington Times column alleged past connections between Khalidi and the Palestinian Liberation Organization, based on his work for the Palestinian National Authority press agency, Wafa, in the late 1980s. Khalidi denied the allegation, which Nation writer Ari Berman describes as a "smear", "wildly distorting" Khalidi's role. Nevertheless, the claim received renewed attention in 2008 when it was used to attack Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama for his friendship with Khalidi. Articles by Aaron Klein and John Bachelor, writers respectively for conservative outlets World Net Daily and Human Events, were referenced by rival political campaigns and reprinted in wider-circulation media.

Worldnet Daily, is such a journalistic joke theres not much need to refute it. The fact that Worldnet is the sole source of this "conspiracy" you've stumbled onto, signals to me that you might try a more reputable source of information. I mean good lord do you honesty think that some random link is evidence enough of this grand scheme. Cause I can find a few news outlets that assure me that Minotaurs and Bigfoot exist. So therefore it must be true right?

Yes but it is the mind set of a man that is potentially going to be president to knowingly and willingly align himself with a man who doesn't deny his part in the bombing of the capitol in 1971 that scares the shit out of me. I dont give 2 squirts of piss what he's doing today in chicago. Obama's done it before and he will do it again. $200 isn't alot of money but just for arguments' sake what would you say about someone 30-40 years from now who while running for president took $200 from osama bin laden. Keep in mind before you jump all over my back this is just for arguments' sake. I realize that old fucker will be dead by then but fill in the blanks with any person with "terroristic" ties. you get my point. oh also dont forget about the fact that obama's wife is a lawyer who makes about 300K per year and claims that "you can't make it in America". She also complains about having to pay back her student loans on that salary. I dont know about you but i dont want a hypocrite like that in office. In a country where a whore takes down a governor then stands to make a considerable amount of money in the aftermath of it all is mind boggling but you can't make it in America right? Take a look at his voting record in the senate and you'll find that he is more liberal than anyone. These liberals today want to have this country run by government through the use of "nanny" laws. Our fore fathers intended for the GOVERNMENT to work FOR THE PEOPLE....not the other way around. I live in jersey and it is run by the worst liberal piece of shit governor that has ever been around so i'm pretty skewed when it comes to having a liberal run the country. i'm getting fucked daily by my state. i dont want to get fucked daily by my country as well.

google these names right next to Obama's too......Tony Rezko and William Ayers Hillary apparently also had "dealings" with Tony Rezko as well.

You are right that mindset might be in question. Then again, I dont think that the people who are running for this and that personally keep tags on who donates what and when. They have people to do so. And as minut amount as 200 wouldnt be nothing more than another donation amongst hundreds, propably thousands. And about the wife. Well, people with money cant bithc about pointless things ;) And its all politics=as in bullshit, people who are hypocrits. And if you say that the government should work FOR THE PEOPLE then this might seem harsh, dangerous. or whatever for me to say this, but I think that when the Weather people did what they did, they did it because they thought that the government DIDN'T work for the people. I dont know much, but your country (as many others) are fucked allready. So maybe there is a need for a person who isn't a corporate lapdog to the fullest of degree, but has ideas of his own. Even if they are dangerous. (like waging war in Iraq wouldnt...)

just asking a question...are you not from the USA? doesn't matter one way of another i'm just being curious. yeah but i agree that we need someone in there who says "fuck off!" to lobbyist and special interest groups and gets this country together. i just think that the three canidates we have now aren't going to do that.

dont take that first question in my last quote to be condescending. i just noticed the way you worded your last paragraph in your last post...it would lead me to believe that you aren't from here thats all.

Im from Finland. And non taken.

nice.

At this point any type of change excites me.Like I said before,none of the current political makes anything stir inside me........................except that a man of color and woman are in the race.........that shows that people want change IMO

OR....because this is the first time that a black man and a woman have a viable shot at the presidency they could be considered by some to be "novelties". In my opinion.

holy moses, women and black men running for president are "novelties"???? God, so many people are so pathetic. Heres an obama video, maybe not as good as obama girl, but its set to one of my favorite songwriters... Of course, I think the song was written like 10-15 years ago, ha...

you know whats pathetic gabe?...people voting for a man who has no list of accomplishments. its just like getting a tattoo. would you let someone tattoo a huge backpiece without investigating his/ her portfolio? would you just take the artists word for it without questioning his or her expertice? would you assume that he or she is a great tattoo artist because she claims to be a good artist on paper? no one is asking obama HOW he plans to change. he just says this that and the other need to be changed but no one asks how because everyone is so taken by his "eloquent" speeches. look throught the bullshit people. if you do your research you will see how evil the clintons really are. she just outright lied about landing in bosnia under sniper fire. when i said they were novelties i was referring to the reason behind why people might vote for them. no a black man and a woman physically and explicitly are NOT, i repeat are NOT, novelties in america but since there have only been a very few (jesse jackson, al sharpton, and i believe his name is alan keyes but not too sure about how many women) that have run much less made it to the level that obama and hillary have, are somewhat implicit "novelties". is that better gabe? i suggest we keep this to a civil debate rather than calling other people pathetic. I never came on this message board and called you and some others pathetic because you were duped by obama did i? This is a free country and while I dont agree or respect your opinion of presidential canidate I will not sink to the level of name calling just because you disagree with me.

“To renew our economy — and to ensure that we are not doomed to repeat a cycle of bubble and bust again and again — we need to address not only the immediate crisis in the housing market; we also need to create a 21st century regulatory framework, and pursue a bold opportunity agenda for the American people,” Obama said....how mr. obama? could please be any more vague mr. obama? To fix the economy, Obama proposed relief for homeowners and an additional $30 billion stimulus package to address the nation’s economic woes...WOW...this sounds sort of familiar hmmm....OH thats right George W. just passes a 150 billion stimulus package and took TONS of shit for it for spending too much but Obama wants to spend ANOTHER 30 billion and everyone is OK with this? where the fuck do you think this money will come from? THE TAX PAYERS THATS WHERE YOU FUCKING MORONS! Take a look at this quote from hillary...even she smells his bullshit....Democratic rival Hillary Clinton’s camp also hit Obama for his plan, saying he “announced a series of broad, vague principles while offering no new concrete solutions to provide Americans with greater confidence in the market or keep them in their homes.” Obama said, the next president should: –Expand oversight to any institution that borrows from the government. –Toughen capital requirements for complex financial instruments like mortgage securities. –Streamline regulatory agencies to end overlap and competition among regulators....all three of these things amount to bigger government...have you people noticed that when the government gets bigger and watches us closer we get fucked even more? Mr. McCain is against big government and all for small government. you democrats must love giving money to the government because all hillary and obama are about is tax and spend. they want to do away with the tax cuts that George W. passes a few years ago. gabe your a business owner and you still want to vote for this horses ass who will basically legally rob you through taxes? if dems were so FOR the people wouldn't you think they would be ALL FOR the renewing the tax cuts?

“To renew our economy — and to ensure that we are not doomed to repeat a cycle of bubble and bust again and again — we need to address not only the immediate crisis in the housing market; we also need to create a 21st century regulatory framework, and pursue a bold opportunity agenda for the American people,” Obama said....how mr. obama? could please be any more vague mr. obama? To fix the economy, Obama proposed relief for homeowners and an additional $30 billion stimulus package to address the nation’s economic woes...WOW...this sounds sort of familiar hmmm....OH thats right George W. just passes a 150 billion stimulus package and took TONS of shit for it for spending too much but Obama wants to spend ANOTHER 30 billion and everyone is OK with this? where the fuck do you think this money will come from? THE TAX PAYERS THATS WHERE YOU FUCKING MORONS! " I'll field this one. Well thanks to FUCKING MORONS, like yourself and your fellow constituents. We've been given 8 years of Bush. Who has put us into a a near two trillion dollar deficit. We went from a trillion dollar SURPLUS at the end of Clintons presidency, to a two trillion dollar deficit at the end of Bush's. You'll forgive me if i'm a bit reluctant to take a discussion on Economics from you lot as at all relevant. Also I love that you rip into Obama for suggesting an economic stimulus plan thats going to cost $120 billion dollars less than the plan Bush put forward. But really the crux of it is. Republicans don't get a say this election and presidency. Tough shit. It's because of your party and opinions that the countries in the sad state of affairs its in. 8 years of Bush has shown just how quickly a republican led government can muck things up. Look around, all the woes were currently facing these days are for a large part of George Bush's making, so in effect your making. The economy is ripped to shreds. Our civil rights have pissed on. Our country is MORE susceptible to attack than it ever was before 9/11. The middle class is all but disappearing, and the gaps between two remaining is as wide as the fucking grand canyon. "Take a look at this quote from hillary...even she smells his bullshit....Democratic rival Hillary Clinton’s camp also hit Obama for his plan, saying he “announced a series of broad, vague principles while offering no new concrete solutions to provide Americans with greater confidence in the market or keep them in their homes.” Uhh....yea..given that Clintons plan for reinvigorating the economy is to appoint Greenspan, to some council and let him fuck the economy even more than he already has. Its a bit hard to take anything she says as credible. "Obama said, the next president should: –Expand oversight to any institution that borrows from the government. –Toughen capital requirements for complex financial instruments like mortgage securities. –Streamline regulatory agencies to end overlap and competition among regulators....all three of these things amount to bigger government...have you people noticed that when the government gets bigger and watches us closer we get fucked even more? Mr. McCain is against big government and all for small government. " Yea I dont know about you, but i'd be absolutely ecstatic if the next president were to make things harder for the Robber-Barons who run our Corporations. As for big government. Dont get much bigger than Bushes. Given his absurd belief that the Executive branch trumps all others. And are you fucking nuts. Or just extremely uninformed. Or some delightful mix of the two. Mccain has pretty much promised that his presidency will essentialy be four more years of Bush. Thats about as far from being against big governement as it gets. "you democrats must love giving money to the government because all hillary and obama are about is tax and spend. they want to do away with the tax cuts that George W. passes a few years ago. gabe your a business owner and you still want to vote for this horses ass who will basically legally rob you through taxes? if dems were so FOR the people wouldn't you think they would be ALL FOR the renewing the tax cuts?" I'm sorry but are you really as naive to think that any of Bush's tax cuts were at all benefitting the everyday citizen? Bushes tax cuts were for him and his rich supporters. All hes done his presidency is make things far easier for his corporate buddies to get away with whatever they damn well please. You really havent been paying attention these last 8 years have you. Well time to pull your heads out of the fucking sand. You've been getting legally and illegally robbed the past eight fucking years. And with a goddamn smile on your face. Bush has robbed this country. He gave tax cuts to the rich during a fucking war. Shortchanged endless amounts of public programs, in order to fund this war. Hes brought us into a recession. The dollar is now worth less than the canadian dollar. Gas is four dollars a gallon. He's taken away many of civil liberties. Right to privacy has all but disappeared. And you want to vote for someone whose promised four more years of all this. Absolutely mindboggling.

Also, Mccain has promised at the very least four more years of year. Which is only going to further ravage the economy. Can any of you republicans honestly make the claim that four more years of year wont have any sort of a negative impact?

***Also, Mccain has promised at the very least four more years of year. Which is only going to further ravage the economy. Can any of you republicans honestly make the claim that four more years of year wont have any sort of a negative impact? ** What?? McCain has promised four more years of year? what the heck does that mean

Oh..as far as "what has country has America "meddled" in and came out successful.... do we forget about WWII? Why is it people in this country claim that they want to "help" people, but when it comes to saving the Iraqi's from genocide and oppression they want nothing to do with it? Ohhhhh right, you just want to help people when it's convenient for you.

oh silly dutchman...is it 120 billion less than what bush offered or is 30 billion on top of what bush deemed sufficient to get the economy rolling again? where is the magical obama going to make this money appear from? ok so bush spent alot and obama is proposing we spend more to get the economy out of the dirt...this jives with you? did you really say that repulicans dont have a say in this election? your saying that in this free country where anyone can vote, in this particular election the republican vote wont matter? do you understand what you said? everyone has a say in any election you fuckhole thats the way democracy works. so lets do some simple math here....if you pay taxes and all that jazz you will get about 600 dollars as a single person, 1200 if your a married couple, and 300 for each child you may have under bush's stimulus package which should arrive this summer right? say in your warped, perfect, little fairy tale world under your perfect little fairy tale king (i'm referring to obama) he will pass a 30 bil stimulus package to homeowners who were not smart enough to take on the debt/ mortgage they could afford, your probable going to get a check for somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-250 dollars which will come god knows when...HOLY SHIT I CAN'T WAIT!!!!! he wants to GIVE money to people who weren't smart with the money they've EARNED. i'm sure that will be MORE than plenty to help people with their mortgage debt. so basically your backing an asshole thats willing to spend 30 billion to help people who have bought too much house. spend spend spend spend away obama. how about this....how about banks tighten up the mortgage approval? how about people smarted up and buy a house that they can afford? how about a little personal responsibility? you dont have to take the full amount that you are pre approved for for buying your house. but no your right all of that was bush's fault because he was egging people on to buy more house than they can afford which put the housing market in shambles, which in turn hurt the economy.

good point, hairpie. and not only that... but Obama is going to want to give this refund to people WHO DON'T EVEN PAY TAXES! and to people who are here ILLEGALLY!!! Do people really agree with that? Well, yeah I'm sure you do if you don't pay taxes.. it's free money that you did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for. No wonder why people don't want to work.. they don't have to. The dems in Congress already tried this with Bush's stimulus package, but luckily it did not pass. We really needed Romney to stay in the race so that he could turn this economy around and cut out all of the fat. I would have def supported a Ron Paul/Mitt Romney ticket. That would have been awesome.

BTW: waterboarding is NOT torture. it's a SIMULATION..u do not drown and no bones are broken. I have a great deal of respect for John McCain, and I can understand why he is against torture. I do think that you can get info just through psychological techniques. I have a psych degree and I know there are ways you can get people to talk. But waterboarding is NOT torture, IMO.

BTW: waterboarding is NOT torture. it's a SIMULATION..u do not drown and no bones are broken. I have a great deal of respect for John McCain, and I can understand why he is against torture. I do think that you can get info just through psychological techniques. I have a psych degree and I know there are ways you can get people to talk. But waterboarding is NOT torture, IMO.

BTW: waterboarding is NOT torture. it's a SIMULATION..u do not drown and no bones are broken. I have a great deal of respect for John McCain, and I can understand why he is against torture. I do think that you can get info just through psychological techniques. I have a psych degree and I know there are ways you can get people to talk. But waterboarding is NOT torture, IMO.

I have no idea why it posted 3 times lol

Im sorry for calling racists and sexists pathetic. I'll also respond to the other points in a day or two. Real quick, harpie, you lose a lot of credibility for telling me you would never resort to name calling, and then calling someone a fuckhole in the same conversation the same day. Also, I have been tattooed by artists with 4 years experience that were *FAR* better than the tattoos I got from artists with 15 years experience. Im lasering that shit off. Someone's passion and short list of accomplishments can easily be more valuable than a lifetime of the wrong experience. As a funny aside, the word fuck has been used 35 times in this thread so far. more soon!

I disagree, Gabe. Because experience where you make wrong decisions, makes you learn for next time. Everyone makes mistakes, and most people learn from their mistakes and avoid making them in the future. But I'm not willing to hand over our country, in a time of war, to someone who has absolutely no experience.

Blee - to stick with the tattooing metaphor, the artists I got tattooed from with 15 years experience had NOT learned from their experiences as much as the guy who tattooed me with 3-4 years experience but had IT. Id love to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that *most* people learn, and maybe they do, but from my experience people have been taught to be stupid and barely have the capability to learn at all anymore (hence my immature "pathetic" name calling incident earlier). I try to keep an open mind and learn something everyday, but am usually too distracted hustling to pay off my credit card bills... Wait, I think people can learn, if you look at your pocketbook and there is less money in it, then its hard to deny reality... I think most people can understand whats happening, hence Oh Silly Dutchmans comment bout how hard right wingers voice is irrelevent. Unfortunately, I think oh silly dutchman might be underestimating the enemy a tad too much, I dont have the same confidence... From the political perspective, when people who have goals that weaken the lower and middle class learn, then they lean things that are against what I stand for. they learn how to make the rich richer, the poor poorer. I dont doubt that McCain has more experience pushing his corporatist agenda, but its not an agenda I agree with at all. I dont count experience playing the corporate lobbyist political game as experience Im behind. that is the experience I am AGAINT. McCain is completely in bed with the corporations, Clinton is not too far behind. Im serious, more later, Ill tackle every point but Ive been wicked busy and Im taking the weekend off. Ive been playing capitalist for the last few months strait with nary a day off. I think Ive got my masters paid off enough to take 48 hours to myself. thank god Im whitey.

It’s unfortunate that Ron Paul gets dismissed so quickly. Even he states that the ideals he stands for are much more important than him. I was skeptical about him too, at first. Then, I really started to look and listen to what the candidates are about. I feel like his ideas are the only ones, in this campaign, that make a lick of sense on every level. 1.) Constitutional (and LIMITED) government. 2.) A r-establishment of sound financial policy 3.) Ending over-reaching, bloated, foreign entanglements 4.) Restore individual privacy 5.) Eliminate an unfair and corrupt tax system I disagree that dismantling something automatically makes it weaker… in the long run. I’ve got a couple of metaphors for this scenario. I’ll start with tattoos. Got a shitty tattoo? What do you do? You laser it off. Then put on a new, better, and cover that bitch up. Bury it under a heap of fresh, bright, happy ink. Second metaphor, also tattoo related. It might sting a little, but think about Darkside back in the day. I got tattooed there, and saw it before it became the bloated mess it became due to inept leadership. Then, I watched it all go to shit (albeit from a distance). So what happened? It basically got dismantled. And the best of what made Darkside so amazing split into three much stronger, completely unique, better studios. Having seen them all first hand, and had the honor of doing some work in two of them, I can undoubtedly say they are ALL better that DS ever was. My final metaphor, our government has become like an old dilapidated building. It’s like the one the old hippies live in Dave Chappelle’s Block Party movie. Falling apart, and rickety, but we just keep adding to it until its nothing more than an eyesore that could fall in on itself any moment. Sad. So what do you do? You provide for the (obviously crazy) people that live and keep building it, knock it the fuck down, (in the government’s case by voting and expressing protest). Then BUILD something stable, modern, has all the electrical and high-speed wizardry to make it viable for the next hundred years or more. So, on we go to talking about Paul’s specific issues in contrast to the other candidates. Who doesn’t want sound money? I want to puke every time I look at the dollar bill in my hand and remember it’s only REALLY worth about 4 cents. If things keep going this way, I will probably never be able to afford my own home in this lifetime, even if the housing market does hit bottom. Many in my generation are feeling that pinch. Next, who can argue with our government needing to get its nose out of its citizen’s private lives? Most of my tax dollar goes to Social Security and Medicaid. Awesome. I’m paying, let’s say, a couple of grand a year for it. The news tells me the Social Security system will be out of money by 2041. I’ll be 67! GREAT! Right about the time I will NEED the Social Security I’ve been paying through the nose for all these years. All right that’s depressing, so let’s move to foreign policy. They say Ron Paul is nuts… but stay the course in Iraq for 100 years!? How many billions has this war already cost? Even if war is good for economy, I find it unlikely that there is that much profit there to be able to make up for that kind of investment in Iraq. Its just bad business, (except apparently, for Halliburton). And I’ll tell you I don’t feel one IOTA safer with all our troops and National Guard extended so far out, for so long. MCCAIN is nuts. I live a National Guard town. I certainly don’t want a commander in chief that’s so terribly out of touch with his troops. I haven’t met one soldier who wants us to be in Iraq for 100 years. Next, is health care. Health care in the US used to be the envy of the world, and now we’re scraping the bottom. Why? Doctors can’t AFFORD to care about patients anymore. It used to be that doctors understood that some would face an inability to pay, but the patient got treated anyway. Now people are filing bankruptcy under the weight of medical bills. When medical care gets put back into the hands of the free market, instead of bureaucratic insurance companies or national healthcare, doctors will have to offer competitive rates for service. Paul uses the metaphor of the largely free market electronics industry. Companies have to compete for their dollar, so the quality, usefulness of the electronics keeps going up, while the cost remains relatively low for consumers. Last but not least… National ID. It sounds good on the surface for the sake of convenience and security… until it gets linked to your medical, financial, and private life. That is tantamount to giving government power to delete your life, your money, and control your choices with the push of a button. Even if the “button push” was accidental, can you imagine the hoops you’d have to jump through to get it corrected? I shudder to think of any government with that kind of power over its people. So sure, Ron Paul has little to no chance of winning this presidency, unless an overwhelming number of us write him in. But listen to his ideas. Take them to heart. This IS our country. This IS our government. It IS our right to not see it handed over to crooked corporations, unconstitutional financial organizations, or corrupt politicians.

Ron Paul sounds to good to be true....never heard of him before.There's alot of issues that need to be addressed.I'm surprised how opinions differ so widely.Can people not see how they're bending over without a fight?Doesn't it bother you that someone on welfare can be 400#s, living in section 8 housing,wearing $100 sneaks and driving a Lexus?What gives?Meanwhile you work 40+ hours a week,pay $150+ a week for insurance ,exuberant taxes-without returns to speak of.Unless you take pride in the fact that some politician just spent $50000 remodeling an office they just got elected to, making up some unnecessary job for some friend or relative.How about the park they just cleaned up(that you wouldn't send your kids to without they're own gun)?Mabey excise taxes are what makes you feel good?all the vehicles I have on the road cost me about $900 a year.Nothing compared to the front end work and tires they'll need because of the disrepair of the roads.Feel free to add to the list.I could go on and on.

hotspark, if you're interested... plenty more on youtube...

I'll have to admit it I kinda cringed when he said get rid of the department of education... its painful because he's right. It's fairly obvious that particular department, as a whole, does not work. That system is full of inequity and the youth are not getting the educations they deserve. The education process should be in the hands of state and local government, not a huge federal system that is out of touch with sending education dollars where it is needed. I also cringed a bit on his stance on Roe v. Wade (in regard for the victims of rape and other crimes, or severe medical conditions)... but the convincing aspect of his argument is that the government should not be involved with, OR pay for that very difficult decision. It should be between that person, their doctor of choice, and their own higher power.

Hairpie said: no one is asking obama HOW he plans to change. he just says this that and the other need to be changed but no one asks how because everyone is so taken by his "eloquent" speeches. look throught the bullshit people. People ask Obama how he plans to change the direction of the country, its just that most media outlets dont listen, and instead focus on flak and silly issues of the day. http://www.barackobama.com/issues/ is the link to the categorized issues and proposed solutions. if you do your research you will see how evil the clintons really are. she just outright lied about landing in bosnia under sniper fire. She is not my first choice at all, not second, third or fourth. But if we compare evils, she is *slightly* less evil than McCain. Well, she may be just as evil, but at least the clintons take care of the middle class a little better. But the Clintons are Republican light. Not very progressive though... The bosnia thing is crazy, they have made some moves that are embarrassing to their campaign for sure. They left the government with a SURPLUS of money, not a DEBT, so as a businessman I have to choose the lessor of two big business evils. i suggest we keep this to a civil debate rather than calling other people pathetic. I never came on this message board and called you and some others pathetic because you were duped by obama did i? This is a free country and while I dont agree or respect your opinion of presidential canidate I will not sink to the level of name calling just because you disagree with me. I agree, sometimes I use strong language because so much is at stake, and I thought most of us are in agreement that the majority of Americas are pathetic morons, though, maybe this is changing? Hell, FOX was the most watched news last I heard, but maybe no more? “To renew our economy — and to ensure that we are not doomed to repeat a cycle of bubble and bust again and again — we need to address not only the immediate crisis in the housing market; we also need to create a 21st century regulatory framework, and pursue a bold opportunity agenda for the American people,” Obama said....how mr. obama? could please be any more vague mr. obama? http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/ To fix the economy, Obama proposed relief for homeowners and an additional $30 billion stimulus package to address the nation’s economic woes...WOW...this sounds sort of familiar hmmm....OH thats right George W. just passes a 150 billion stimulus package and took TONS of shit for it for spending too much but Obama wants to spend ANOTHER 30 billion and everyone is OK with this? where the fuck do you think this money will come from? THE TAX PAYERS THATS WHERE YOU FUCKING MORONS! Hey, your calling names! Yeah, it comes from repealing the tax cuts for the RICH who have had the ride of their lives the last 7 years. Sorry, you wont see me crying for the top 1-2% who might have to actually pay their fair share to make sure the middle class, the class that should be the backbone of the country, gets its fair share. The rich always cry about being taxed for being successful, but thats mis-framing the situtation. The tax burden should be spread out and paid fairly, the middle clas has gotten the shaft in the last 7 years. While these tax breaks and and stimulus packages may help with an immediate need, a longer term solution is necessary. Band Aids wont fix the broken bones. Say what you will about Slick Willy, but he left the country with a surplus of money in the bank... something he did after the last run of Republican financial irresponsibility. Its not like its a great big secret, its easy, tax everyone fairly and the rich will pay their fair share. Let the rich write the rules (and the media), and they get tax breaks in a time of WAR! Obama said, the next president should: –Expand oversight to any institution that borrows from the government. –Toughen capital requirements for complex financial instruments like mortgage securities. –Streamline regulatory agencies to end overlap and competition among regulators....all three of these things amount to bigger government...have you people noticed that when the government gets bigger and watches us closer we get fucked even more? Mr. McCain is against big government and all for small government. that is absolutely debatable, if not laughable, seeing as how many of his main advisors are lobbyists and thrive in the current environment of big government corruption. The republican party is the party of big ineffectual government, and the last 7 years prove it if Reagan and Bush Sr. didnt prove it in the past. McCain isnt going to change a thing! Also, lets not confuse wanting a STRONG government with wanting a big government. you democrats must love giving money to the government because all hillary and obama are about is tax and spend. they want to do away with the tax cuts that George W. passes a few years ago. gabe your a business owner and you still want to vote for this horses ass who will basically legally rob you through taxes? Are you serious? Yes, I own 3 businesses and sometimes a freelance job is too good to pass up. I have hustled for myself for the last 15 years figuring out rule-sets and the ways to manipulate them and have scrambled my way ahead. Do you know who has been robbing me legally for the last 7 years? The government to fund a war based on lies that costs more than they told me and has no end in sight costing me MORE money, the insurance companies (and hospitals), and the credit card companies. I want someone in power who will help protect me from these forces, not be in bed with them. I would gladly pay more taxes if the government insured a better environment for me to do business in. Also, Im not a democrat by any stretch of the imagination, I am and have always been an independent. if dems were so FOR the people wouldn't you think they would be ALL FOR the renewing the tax cuts? Are you serious? I dont know how much money you make, but the tax cuts havnt benefited me at all! They helped shift the tax burden to me. Maybe you should take an economics class or something, ha. Maybe you have, but either way the idea that advocates for the working class should be for renewing tax cuts for the wealthy really is laughable! OhsillyDutchman said: But really the crux of it is. Republicans don't get a say this election and presidency. Tough shit. It's because of your party and opinions that the countries in the sad state of affairs its in. 8 years of Bush has shown just how quickly a republican led government can muck things up. yeah, but you thought we would be smart enough after 4 years of it. I wish I shared your optimism that people have learned, and maybe they have. After all, what really counts at the moment is what we have in our pockets, and from what I can tell almost everyone is getting the squeeze. If you work hard you can still get ahead, but we are in a recession no doubt. hairpie said: "Take a look at this quote from hillary...even she smells his bullshit....Democratic rival Hillary Clinton’s camp also hit Obama for his plan, saying he “announced a series of broad, vague principles while offering no new concrete solutions to provide Americans with greater confidence in the market or keep them in their homes.” Ohsillydutchman replied: Uhh....yea..given that Clintons plan for reinvigorating the economy is to appoint Greenspan, to some council and let him fuck the economy even more than he already has. Its a bit hard to take anything she says as credible. Sorry to say, tis true. Oh, and Hairpie, you really shouldnt use someone as a proof for a point after you have dis-credited them... Bee said: Oh..as far as "what has country has America "meddled" in and came out successful.... do we forget about WWII? Im not sure where the original quote where your responding to is from, but I think the term occupation is more accurate than meddled if your referencing Iraq. Sure, we can kick ass, but it is incredibly expensive to *occupy* a country half way around the world. Also, I think I remember our involvement in WWII taking 4 years, and this occupation of Iraq is going on 5 years with no end in sight... Even if you could convince me the war was justified, the absolutely inedpt way this administration has conducted this war is a disgrace. Its dishonorable, its a waste of human life, including our very own. I simply dont understand how even if you are for the war you dont understand how horrible it has been conducted, and people that make excuses for starting a pre-emptive war and then fucking it up this bad are blind. Why is it people in this country claim that they want to "help" people, but when it comes to saving the Iraqi's from genocide and oppression they want nothing to do with it? Ohhhhh right, you just want to help people when it's convenient for you. Its ironic you try to make this point given that the Iraq war and occupation is a *perfect* example of America's foreign policy only "careing" about oppression when its convenient for corporate interests. Say, when they have oil. Did you forget we were doing business with Saddam when he was being oppressive when convenient for the corporations. Did you forget that the Neo-Con agenda had invading and occupying Iraq for years? Did you forget how the administration lied to you when they said it would only take months and grossly underestimated the budget? FIVE years later and we are still there, time to drastically change directions, the Republican agenda is poisonous. Tell you what, I want to help people all over the world, and I want to do it by making the best country we can here and influencing the world through positive role modeling and commerce. When the system truely educates and creates opportunity for its people to reach their full productivity and the majority of our population is strong, smart, and healthy, then other countries will fall in line because they see the benefits of our system and because our positive international business. I would love to stop all the genocide and oppression in the world, but first we need to focus on ourselves and fixing this system, and then we can help battle injustices for the right reasons in the right way more educated and stronger. If you think the Iraq war was for altruistic reasons, you are very naive. dont accuse me of being selective with my good will because you are too thick to see through the smoke and mirrors. good point, hairpie. and not only that... but Obama is going to want to give this refund to people WHO DON'T EVEN PAY TAXES! really? Can you point me to where this is planned? and to people who are here ILLEGALLY!!! Do people really agree with that? Well, yeah I'm sure you do if you don't pay taxes.. it's free money that you did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for. No wonder why people don't want to work.. they don't have to. The dems in Congress already tried this with Bush's stimulus package, but luckily it did not pass. We really needed Romney to stay in the race so that he could turn this economy around and cut out all of the fat. I would have def supported a Ron Paul/Mitt Romney ticket. That would have been awesome. Mitt Romney is a stooge that flip flopped more than a fish on a dock! Ron Paul, I'd be for him before Clinton, more on paul later... BTW: waterboarding is NOT torture. it's a SIMULATION..u do not drown and no bones are broken. I have a great deal of respect for John McCain, and I can understand why he is against torture. I do think that you can get info just through psychological techniques. I have a psych degree and I know there are ways you can get people to talk. But waterboarding is NOT torture, IMO. Not sure where this came from, but what I know is when we water-board our prisoners, which has been considered torture for years, then we should expect our soldiers to be tortured when they are taken prisoner. Bye Bye Geneva convention. Hey, that may be cool with you, I would prefer taking the higher ground and not encouraging our enemies to water-board or torture our servicemen and women if taken prisoner. Kandyman Joe said: It’s unfortunate that Ron Paul gets dismissed so quickly. hey, he has a lot to say, but the end of the libertarian philosophy is pretty dangerous if you ask me. Even he states that the ideals he stands for are much more important than him. I was skeptical about him too, at first. Then, I really started to look and listen to what the candidates are about. I feel like his ideas are the only ones, in this campaign, that make a lick of sense on every level. 1.) Constitutional (and LIMITED) government. 2.) A r-establishment of sound financial policy 3.) Ending over-reaching, bloated, foreign entanglements 4.) Restore individual privacy 5.) Eliminate an unfair and corrupt tax system I disagree that dismantling something automatically makes it weaker… in the long run. I’ve got a couple of metaphors for this scenario. I’ll start with tattoos. Got a shitty tattoo? What do you do? You laser it off. Then put on a new, better, and cover that bitch up. Bury it under a heap of fresh, bright, happy ink. Right, and I have always thought that the benefits of a Ron Paul presidency are not that he has the solution, but that tearing the system down will make it easier to rebuild stronger later. There are a lot of good things about dismantling, but I believe the point of the government is to create an environment where its people can thrive. Otherwise we might as well not have a government (which is ultimately where libertarianism leads). My final metaphor, our government has become like an old dilapidated building. It’s like the one the old hippies live in Dave Chappelle’s Block Party movie. Falling apart, and rickety, but we just keep adding to it until its nothing more than an eyesore that could fall in on itself any moment. Sad. So what do you do? You provide for the (obviously crazy) people that live and keep building it, knock it the fuck down, (in the government’s case by voting and expressing protest). Then BUILD something stable, modern, has all the electrical and high-speed wizardry to make it viable for the next hundred years or more. Right, and that is not a big government, or a limited weak government, but a strong one run by smart educated people with the best interests of the majority of the population in mind. Next, who can argue with our government needing to get its nose out of its citizen’s private lives? I dont know! I also think the government should treat adults like adults and have a *very* open system. Nothing behind closed doors, very very little needs to be classified. If they say we are too stupid, then educating us should be on their agenda, cause I dont trust ANY of them, and I want to know exactly what is happening. No more behind closed door meetings. Give it all to us, we pay for it! Most of my tax dollar goes to Social Security and Medicaid. Awesome. I’m paying, let’s say, a couple of grand a year for it. The news tells me the Social Security system will be out of money by 2041. I’ll be 67! GREAT! Right about the time I will NEED the Social Security I’ve been paying through the nose for all these years. Most of your money is currently going to iraq and a good part interest on our debt. dont worry, but 2041 we will have adjusted the system to insure you have social security. Hopefully a nice one after the next 30 years of domestic productivity! All right that’s depressing, so let’s move to foreign policy. They say Ron Paul is nuts… but stay the course in Iraq for 100 years!? How many billions has this war already cost? Even if war is good for economy, I find it unlikely that there is that much profit there to be able to make up for that kind of investment in Iraq. War is good for the economy only if you make your money on war, and that is immoral. I believe war profiteering should be absolutely illegal, having a system where you can profit from war encourages immoral business. I believe war profiteering is outlawed in the constitution... Its just bad business, (except apparently, for Halliburton). And I’ll tell you I don’t feel one IOTA safer with all our troops and National Guard extended so far out, for so long. MCCAIN is nuts. I live a National Guard town. I certainly don’t want a commander in chief that’s so terribly out of touch with his troops. I haven’t met one soldier who wants us to be in Iraq for 100 years. Occupation of a foreign land is insane, and I hope anyone who advocated for it has learned their lesson. Im afraid we are hearing from people who still believe the BS and cant see whats happening over there... ah well, time will tell its story regardless of our thoughts! Next, is health care. Health care in the US used to be the envy of the world, and now we’re scraping the bottom. Why? Doctors can’t AFFORD to care about patients anymore. It used to be that doctors understood that some would face an inability to pay, but the patient got treated anyway. Now people are filing bankruptcy under the weight of medical bills. When medical care gets put back into the hands of the free market, instead of bureaucratic insurance companies or national healthcare, doctors will have to offer competitive rates for service. Paul uses the metaphor of the largely free market electronics industry. Companies have to compete for their dollar, so the quality, usefulness of the electronics keeps going up, while the cost remains relatively low for consumers. Keeping the population healthy is in the governments best interests... A healthy population produces more and is less of a burden on the system... When corporations are in charge, they ultimately have profit as a driving factor. Indeed, then its in their interest to keep us unhealthy so they can charge us to get healthy. I believe a nationalized health care is the best way to simplify the system (which makes it leaner as a business), and can guarantee that quality of care is the motivator, not profit. A healthy population is more productive, so I beleive its the governments duty to encourage a healthy environment. Last but not least… National ID. It sounds good on the surface for the sake of convenience and security… until it gets linked to your medical, financial, and private life. That is tantamount to giving government power to delete your life, your money, and control your choices with the push of a button. Even if the “button push” was accidental, can you imagine the hoops you’d have to jump through to get it corrected? I shudder to think of any government with that kind of power over its people. Blah national ID. We dont need it, I dont trust the government. Dont trust the corporations, certainly dont trust national ids! So sure, Ron Paul has little to no chance of winning this presidency, unless an overwhelming number of us write him in. But listen to his ideas. Take them to heart. This IS our country. This IS our government. It IS our right to not see it handed over to crooked corporations, unconstitutional financial organizations, or corrupt politicians. I do listen to his words and take them to heart. He was the only voice of reason and integrity on the republican ticket. I would prefer him over clinton, alas, that wont be the option. For me, Dennis Kucenich was the candidate whom I have never disagreed with I dont think. hotspark said: Ron Paul sounds to good to be true....never heard of him before.There's alot of issues that need to be addressed.I'm surprised how opinions differ so widely.Can people not see how they're bending over without a fight?Doesn't it bother you that someone on welfare can be 400#s, living in section 8 housing,wearing $100 sneaks and driving a Lexus?What gives? Hotspark, we have hacked this one out before, I dont care (as much) about the people who leech a few grand off the system, I care about the people leeching MILLIONS. Thats whos fucking us, not the less fortunate. It bothers me that well over 50 cents of my tax dollar gets wasted on war, when it should be going to educate that welfare waste kid so that they are NOT a waste and are productive... thats what pisses me off. That and they have the poor fighting amongst ourselves... Meanwhile you work 40+ hours a week,pay $150+ a week for insurance ,exuberant taxes-without returns to speak of.Unless you take pride in the fact that some politician just spent $50000 remodeling an office they just got elected to, making up some unnecessary job for some friend or relative. this is what Im against. McCain and to a lessor degree Clinton epitomize this type of politics. Obama, much much less. How about the park they just cleaned up(that you wouldn't send your kids to without they're own gun)?Mabey excise taxes are what makes you feel good?all the vehicles I have on the road cost me about $900 a year.Nothing compared to the front end work and tires they'll need because of the disrepair of the roads.Feel free to add to the list.I could go on and on. Hey, the government is broken no doubt. The mistake I think many people make is they take this as proof that government cant work. The fact is, if we educate people and get the right people in power, then it can work, and has worked very well in the past. Hell, we took out Germany and Japan in 4 years! This country has a lot of opportunity and good things going for it, if dismantling it to build it stronger works, Im down, if getting a half-black guy in power to lead us in the right direction does it, Im down, I know in my heart that McCain is more of the same, and the same sucks ass. Kandyman Joe said: I'll have to admit it I kinda cringed when he said get rid of the department of education... its painful because he's right. It's fairly obvious that particular department, as a whole, does not work. It doesnt work because they underfund and mis-prioritize it. Just because something doesnt currently work isnt proof that it cant work. There are a lot of education systems around the world that work just fine! In fact, I think the poor education system is intentional, look what they can acheive with a stupid population... That system is full of inequity and the youth are not getting the educations they deserve. The education process should be in the hands of state and local government, not a huge federal system that is out of touch with sending education dollars where it is needed. I agree, local governments have to have a large say in the way they educate their population, but the national community is ultimately who receives the benefits of everyones education. That is, we live in the United States, and pay into the United States. The schools that educate do not receive direct benefits to their work, but its proven that society gets a 10% return every year for each dollar spent on education. The community benefits from an educated person because that person is taught to be productive, so instead of being a neutral or negative force on the economy, they become a positive one. Less jail time, more time in the workforce (if the workplace is healthy and has opportunity). But its the whole society who benefits, so ultimately the whole society should invest in its education. Thats a point that is really hard to get through the right wingers "me" mentality. They say "Why should I pay for some poor kids education" and the answer is "because if you dont you pay for their education, you pay for their jail, silly, isnt it bettr to have productive people instead of leechs?" and then they get offended I called them silly and its like, well, if you deny reality then you are being silly! ah, life, whatever, good luck fellahs, Im sure McCain will get the reigns for the next few years. If so, dont be surprised if TattooNOW heads overseas to a country who knows how to foster a good economy and business climate... Either way you can count on me continuing to practice my wacko liberal left wing strategy to grow my businesses, and the businesses of my clients.

hey gabe...you called me a racist and a sexist somewhere in the middle of this post....i tried to explain myself when i said that clinton and obama maybe, to some degree, to some people, novelty votes and gave you a chance to see my point BUT you still have not and still would like to think of me as a racist and a sexist.....you really need to watch how you throw that word "racist" around...nothing i said was racist...it would also interest you to know that i'm a black man who votes republican. i'm also married to a white woman. care to change your point of view of me? if i said in an early post that obama is nothing more than a nigger and shouldn't be president based on the color of his skin then that would be racist....saying that he may be a novelty vote is not racist. if i said hillary shouldn't be president because of her pussy then that would be sexist but i never said that. bottom line...i'm not voting for obama or hillary because i dont agree with their policies and thats the only reason. i'm also proud to say that i'm not "giving" obama my vote either based on the color of MY OWN BLACK skin. watch who you call racist when you dont know what their face looks like. Maybe try to pay more attention to what people say and their motivation for saying it too before you cry racist. too many people in this country jump to that conclusion too fast and its not necessary.

Honestly Hairpie, I tried to be as clear as I could to call *people who think women and black people running for president novelties* racist and sexist. I thought you made it clear that *some* people thought that way, implying you dont. Those *some* people are the ones I am calling racist and sexist. as for thinking about other points of view, of course I can imagine a point of view where someone thinks that a woman or black man running for president is nothing more than a novelty. those are thought I recognize as well, racist and sexist. As I said, I dont really care who you vote for, I think many of your arguments fall apart when you look at the facts and unfortunatly the network news and the run of the mill pathetic population doesnt either, so I wont be surprised when McCain cheats and steals the next election, though, clinton is a pretty good cheat and corporate player herself, she might kick his ass. Anyone know what the difference in fund raising and personal fortunes is between Clinton and McCain? After all, it is money that does the talking in this world aint it?

Couldn't agree more with the very last statement of your very last post gabe...green is the only color that matters today and people will do anything for it. so just curious...i'm really interested in starting up a shop but i'm not an artist. seems like you have to tread lightly regarding that subject as tattoo artists dont take too kindly to it. i know that you aren't an artist (not a tattoo artist) either but how long has your shop been up and running? before anyone jumps on my ass about opening up a shop because i'm not a tattoo artist just settle down because i have no plans to start a shop anytime soon.

Off the Map Tattoo has been open a little over 2 years. Whenever anyone who doesnt tattoo asks me how I did it, I reply, well, I make a living from building websites and had an audience of over a half million unique visitors researching tattoos each month, and I still dont draw a check from the studio, it pays for itself but I havnt made any money on it yet. I am paying off my loans, however, and someday the studio will turn a profit I imagine. Then I ask them what they have to offer amazingly talented tattoo artists that they cant get elsewhere and how long they want to work and stress and sweat for a business they make no money from for a few years...

Nice to see Barack telling it like it is. "When I go around and I talk to people there is frustration and there is anger and there is bitterness. And what's worse is when people are expressing their anger then politicians try to say what are you angry about? This just happened - I want to make a point here today. "I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser and somebody asked how're you going to get votes in Pennsylvania? What's going on there? We hear that's its hard for some working class people to get behind you're campaign. I said, "Well look, they're frustrated and for good reason. Because for the last 25 years they've seen jobs shipped overseas. They've seen their economies collapse. They have lost their jobs. They have lost their pensions. They have lost their healthcare. "And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we're going to make your community better. We're going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they're bitter. Of course they're frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody's going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here's what rich. Senator Clinton says 'No, I don't think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack's being condescending.' John McCain says, 'Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he's obviously out of touch with people.' "Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain--it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he's saying I'm out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I'm out of touch? No, I'm in touch. I know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in Pennsylvania. I know what's going on in Indiana. I know what's going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They're angry and they're frustrated and they're bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that's why I'm running for President of the United States of America." www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/11/clinton-mccain-respond-to_n_96318.html

It is amazing how poiliticians will latch on to sound bytes then mince, mangle, and twist others words to fit their own ambitions. Hillary should listen to the heart of what Obama is saying. This kind of crap is exactly why I don't trust her. I'd much rather see Obama in the White House over her or McCain.

Well, the contest heats up. I guess we will see if the consolidated media conglomerates are strong enough to push through another politician who works for the lobbyists... Good luck Barrack, I hope to god we elect him. Im making plans to help open a studio in Europe either way... Hopefully to be used for extended working vacations, and not escape from a collapsing country :-)