OT: Whos not funding the troops?

Ok, so whos not funding the troops? Why the #$%^ would the house and senate give the white house more money without any conditions, benchmarks, or deadlines? Where is the outcry that the white house vetoed a bill funding the troops? Should congress cave in?

Gabe you know as well as I do that until we have a change in the powers that be nothing is going to change....the profit margins of an ongoing military action are just too high for them to back away from the senseless bullcrap. All the stuff you see in the news about this subject is just smoke and mirrors meant to fool the public into quietude ...and apparently and sadly it works! People start writing and calling your government reps!!! Get out and vote!! If you don't vote yu have no right to complain!!

But this is what is "bad" about voting. People usually only see the ones that have most money (Bush, Kerry) etc. So they maybe even dont know about other ones, that are totally different (Nader etc). So they should vote, but its hard to vote when they are brainwashed by the people who control the media etc. Brainwashed simply because the canditate that has most money=gets usually most votes. And if theres the mentality that you have to vote or you cant complain, then people will vote for bad ones because they think that they "have to". And really dont even know about other canditates.

you're pretty foolish if you think votes are actually counted.

Bingo, Bob. Or, at least foolish to believe votes are EFFICIENTLY counted. Its the one thing that keeps me from wholeheartedly believing 9-11 conspiracy theories... To believe our government was behind WTC, is to believe the govt. is competent enough to pull off an operation like that. Was it "taken advantage" of by the administration for its own agenda? sure. Other examples of the bureaucratic incompetency: Katrina, Troop medical care in Iraq, Florida's hanging chads, etc. Curious and off topic... what are people's thoughts on the thermite theory and WTC? Or even about the movie Alex Jones' "Terrorstorm." Nutty bullshit, or should I watch it? And Gabe... most 18-30 year olds are 1) apathetic 2) more concerned about Anna Nicole and Paris Hilton 3) Can't reach thier reps through the World of Warcraft or Xbox, so why bother? Are you suprised by the lack of outcry? I think the housecleaning in Congress WAS the outcry, and now people are simply throwing their hands up in exasperation. The Boston Tea Party was started for less bullshit than we're eating now. -KMJ

well dude politics is a tough cookie. You have to belive that the only reason that they gave them more money is so our troops need this cash. The liberal media however seems to blow this out of proportion, the amounts of zones so to speak in Iraq right now has gone down. True that by this time after the initial deployment we should have done our business and been done with it. Like it or not it happened but a competent president with the same adjenda would have done it right. However with politics on a whole nothing is gonna change unless the people get off there asses and show the powers that be that we are fed up with there horse-shit. You think just because we have a democratic congers and probley a dem president after the '08 election. Well fuck all will change beacuse both sides of the spectrum are way to hard-headed and stuburn to relize that there job is or atleast should be to not do what is the best for their party but to work with the other party and do whats best for the country.

In a bit of local news that relates to the voting topic... The town held a vote on a new jail facility, that is suppsedly supposed to make the town and staff safer, save $1.2 million over 20 years, and alleviate overcrowding. It was to be placed on land the city already owns. I had a meeting with the director of town zoning who was up in arms about this: The outcome of the vote was controlled by SEVEN percent of the registered voters in the area. Regardless of wether you believe in more jails or not... 93% didn't even bother. Is it because we're apathetic, or more because we're figuring out that our votes have basically become worthless?

Well, the voting did happen, and will, even with 7% people in there. So obviously the votes DID count. And will count in the future. So the issue in my mind is, as you said, that why didnt people show up? If they would have, the could have made a difference. How many actually even knew about it?

"Well, the voting did happen, and will, even with 7% people in there. So obviously the votes DID count. And will count in the future. So the issue in my mind is, as you said, that why didn't people show up? If they would have, the could have made a difference. How many actually even knew about it?" Precisely,it takes a lot of effort to inform people,make them pay attention.If you feel strongly about something,would you go door to door,write letters,research?It works,last town election in this small town 57% percent of registered voters turned out.The race was decided by 13 votes,the year before about the same and decided by only 2 votes. Ever see V for Vendetta? "The government should fear the people,not the other way around."

Hotspark...a perfect example! Ok to the people who said voting doesn't count....so I guess we should just sit back and complain huh?...BULLSHIT!! Your vote DOES count!! As does getting invloved...that is if ya give a shit!!

I was posing a rhetorical argument about votes not counting... I know that to some degree they count, but there ARE a lot of disenfranchised people after Florida's voting fiasco and with the "new" congress not taking a stand for the people they represent. The question is more about how and why so much power has been drained from our votes?

Because it secures the people that have pover to have it in the future. I quote Noam Chomsky. Voting Patterns and Abstentions "The constitutional system was originally designed “to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority,” in the words of the leading framer, James Madison. Political power, he explained, must be in the hands of “the wealth of the nation,” men who can be trusted to “secure the permanent interests of the country”—the rights of the propertied—and to defend these interests against the “leveling spirit” of the general public. If the public were allowed to participate freely in elections, Madison warned his colleagues, their “leveling spirit” might lead to measures to improve the conditions of those who “labor under all the hardships of life, and secretly sigh for a more equal distribution of its blessings.” Agrarian reform was the primary threat that Madison perceived; by now, it is much broader. In a modern version, the general public are considered “ignorant and meddlesome outsiders” who should be mere “spectators of action,” not participants (Walter Lippmann); their role is only periodic choice among the “responsible men,” who are to function in “technocratic insulation,” in World Bank lingo, “securing the permanent interests.” The doctrine, labeled “polyarchy” by democratic political theorist Robert Dahl, is given firmer institutional grounds by the reduction of the public arena under the “reforms.” Democracy is to be construed as the right to choose among commodities. Business leaders explain the need to impose on the population a “philosophy of futility” and “lack of purpose in life,” to “concentrate human attention on the more superficial things that comprise much of fashionable consumption.” People may then accept and even welcome their meaningless and subordinate lives, and forget ridiculous ideas about managing their own affairs. They will abandon their fate to the responsible people, the self-described “intelligent minorities” who serve and administer power —which of course lies elsewhere, a hidden but crucial premise. From this perspective, conventional in elite opinion, the latest elections do not reveal a flaw of American democracy, but rather its triumph. " http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200102--.htm

Yup. Hammer, meet head o' the nail.

Good quote PDC. Unfortunately I don't think anything will change without some type of revolution. People will have to get tired of being spoon fed sh!t and band together before there's change.What do you think would happen if we ALL decided to quit paying taxes?What could/would they do?

If in this day an age, everyone would stop paying taxes, this propably would happen. (Shortly) People would somehow spread the word and everyone would try to do it. When the first ultimatums (We will do this to your credit files etc) would come from goverment, lets say trough TV, then about 95% would stop what they are trying to do, and pay there taxes as normal. And the 5% would be stopped by killing them or thrown in to the jail/camps. Because how united are people at this point? People are arming them selfs because they fear there next door neighbor!. And if they do so, how would they have the will to stand agaisnt something, when it would take for EVERYONE to be on the same page. We arent now, and would be less if something like this would happen. First try to unify your close circle of friends. Show them that you can be trusted. Thats a start. Then maybe some day people will act as one, because they have LEARNED to do so with there family and friends. Starting a "revolution" from scratch would be the easy way out, and thats what the powers at be would like you to do. And I quote "When you involve yourself in politics out of a sense of obligation, and make political action into a dull responsibility rather than an exciting game that is worthwhile for its own sake, you scare away people whose lives are already far too dull for any more tedium. When you make politics into a lifeless thing, a joyless thing, a dreadful responsibility, it becomes just another weight upon people, rather than a means to lift weight from people. And thus you ruin the idea of politics for the people to whom it should be most important. For everyone has a stake in considering their lives, in asking themselves what they want out of life and how they can get it. But you make politics look to them like a miserable, self-referential, pointless middle class/bohemian game, a game with no relevance to the real lives they are living out. What should be political? Whether we enjoy what we do to get food and shelter. Whether we feel like our daily interactions with our friends, neighbors, and coworkers are fulfilling. Whether we have the opportunity to live each day the way we desire to. And "politics" should consist not of merely discussing these questions, but of acting directly to improve our lives in the immediate present. Acting in a way that is itself entertaining, exciting, joyous—because political action that is tedious, tiresome, and oppressive can only perpetuate tedium, fatigue, and oppression in our lives. No more time should be wasted debating over issues that will be irrelevant when we must go to work again the next day. No more predictable ritual protests that the authorities know all too well how to deal with; no more boring ritual protests which will not sound like a thrilling way to spend a Saturday afternoon to potential volunteers—clearly, those won't get us anywhere. Never again shall we "sacrifice ourselves for the cause." For we ourselves, happiness in our own lives and the lives of our fellows, must be our cause! After we make politics relevant and exciting, the rest will follow. But from a dreary, merely theoretical and/or ritualized politics, nothing valuable can follow. This is not to say that we should show no interest in the welfare of humans, animals, or ecosystems that do not contact us directly in our day to day existence. But the foundation of our politics must be concrete: it must be immediate, it must be obvious to everyone why it is worth the effort, it must be fun in itself. How can we do positive things for others if we ourselves do not enjoy our own lives? "

Yes we should never forget why it is we fight by never taking a moment to enjoy ourselves. but im sorry too much is occuring to adopt an entirely selfish attitude that puts self-indulgence over fighting for what really needs to be fought for. i cant tell you the utter disgust and horror at the response i hear from people over and over and over when trying to discuss or raise awareness for something and to hear "oh i dont like to read or talk about stuff like that. all politicians are evil. so why even put ourselves for the worry" fuck that. there is far too many horrible and terrifying things happening even as i sit here writing this. far too much at stake to embrace sticking our heads in the sands. because god forbid we should ever feel discomfort in our happy little lives. its not like the other half of people living in this world who dont have the luck of being born in countries actually take measures to protect their citizens. there are people who dont have the pleasure of worrying about how much happiness they should fill their lives with. we know nothing of self sacrifice anymore. weve grown too lazy and greedy. Im ashamed at what humanity still allows to take place on a daily basis. its without any logic or justification. very real changes need to be made to our civilization and its priorities. we harm ourselves and anything unfortunate enough to get in our paths, by ignoring our own potential. our minds and conciousness allow us an ability to live in a world where all not just some can lead happy fufilling lives. and until we do, we do a great disservice to the reality that despite being surrounded by apparently lifeless space. somehow here we live on a planet that grants us our every want and need. and yet somehow we still see fit to bicker and aruge and slaughter one another over nothing. just fucking shameful.

I want to comment on three things. The power of disenfranchisement, the mid-term elections and the rise of the candy ass democrats, and how absolutely flimsy and ignorant the term "liberal media" really is. disenfranchisement means taking away the power of voting. thats one part in winning the elections. Taking away votes from your enemy starts well before actively taking steps to stop votes. Ah, shit, lets start at the begining. I want all the power. To get all the power I have two paths, and for the sake of this argument Im gonna take the "evil" path. the negative. The "take" not the "give". The -1 not the +1. That means I want all the power and I am going to take it away from people. Now, personally I am not (hopefully obviously) part of the upper stratta of POWER though I have brushed with it in the past. I mean POWER like people who have tens of millions (and one person with hundreds of millions) swiss banker kinda people, but Ive been listening to them intently for 5-6 years (pittiful, but my parents and community taught me shit. More on that later)). sorry, back to pretending Im a megloegomaniac hell bent on world domination and am of the "take" philosophy, so I have to start with the country Im in. Evil can control stupid people easier than smart ones, indeed evil thrives off ignorance, and good is empowered by education. Evil cuts off education to the people so its obviously much easier to control them. Teach them they cant make any difference. Teach them to be happy with maxim magazine and rock star energy drink and ciggerettes and paris hilton and walmart. Teach them quality doenst make a difference and then sell them cheap shit. Most importantly, teach them they cant make a difference (Naom is the man!). Its a numbers game, and those are the easist people to manulpilate, dont need to stop them or lose their viotes... so evil fosters ignorance. From there you get into the shady tactic about keeping large numebrs of peoples from the polls. Losing ballets. Fucking EASILY HACKABLE computer voting machines. Any politician that doesnt clean that shit up is evil. Takers, not giver. Dont need takers in power, we want givers. The fact is you cant cheat in a knockout, but that knockout wont happen if the population doesnt have a working knowledge of politics, economy, morality, patience, etc, etc. too many people in our population think they cant make a difference when the whole point of the American Revolution and Constitution was that you DO have that right and power. Too many people have already let them take it away. Un-patriotic.. practically treason... ok, ok, I didnt say anyone who doesnt vote is comitting treason, but you are acting against your own, and your countries own, best interests. Dont like the candidates? Write in. Push fartehr in your direction. Otherwise you cant complain that you are taking in the a$$. whenever you or your friends say "Awww, they are all the same, it doesnt make a difference" or "Awwww, its all rigged so it doesnt make a difference" you can now think "Thats a sheepeople thought, fuck the people who rigged my vote... fuck the people who make my voice not make a difference. I am not a loser with nothing to gain, I have the POWER!!!!!" Well, you can think whatever you want I guess, I dont even know what I think thesedays... Ok, so the midterm elections actually made me realize that the voting wasn't *that* rigged. Eventually people wake up with a sore a$$ every morning and realize that the talking points that broke down in theory (but got shouted over by the CORPERATE MEDIA) also break down in reality (reluctenly reported on by an ASHAMED CORPERATE MEDIA) and voted for the other side this time. It was a knockout. The people spoke. Now is the time for the congress to take the power given to them and not back down. I knew that the work was just getting started, and but the politicians that we voted into power need to realize that they wont get the power forever if they back down from doing EVERYTHING they can to fix the horrifying mistakes this administration has created. Another 2 years of building this bad karma will take 4 more to fix. thats a lot of soldiers lives. Politics is a horrible game because when we find ourselves in situations like this quagmire in Iraq we are actually in a meat grinder trying to get out. the way this administration has treated our armed forces is insane. Inexcusable. They deserve so much more respect. Fuck this war, take care of the public servants and the population. Everyone needs to lean on everyone to make sure your representatives do the right thing. If we are going to keep paying for this war we deserve benchmarks and timetables to get out. The military deserves it. Its insane to start a pre-emptive war and not do it right. Its no secret they put in half the troops they needed and didnt plan for shit. And they keep fucking it up. I guess I knew we would need to keep pushing, but I guess I was also hoping the democrats would realize who put them in power and why. Ok, lucky for you Im outta steam for this liberal medai crap. Ill make this real short. Right wing Nut Job: Oh, the liberal media spins the news out of control and its the whole media thats raving liberal (cept us of course). Iraq is great everywhere there isnt death and slaughter and torture. Left winger: ummm, Im a raving left wing lunatic and none of the news even comes close to representing a liberal viewpoint. Well, cept comedy central and some of south park... Right Wing Nut Job: Ha ha ha. you didnt even mention that bankrupt corrupt good for nothing Air America Radio no one listens too. Left Winger: Oh right... Air america.. there, thats the one voice in the media thats pretty liberal and right on all the time (there are others I know, Im being short)... Right Wing Nut Job: Pathetic. No one would want to listen to Liberal talk shows! Left Winger: Wait... didnt you just tell me the whole media except you is liberal? and then follow that up with a comment about how no one listens to the liberal media? Right Wing Nut Job: CUT. thanks everyone thats a wrap. Bill, we have enough to edit that one up nicely, our blatant hypocrisy will never be known bu-whahahahahahah Liberal media my ass, they are ashamed as #$% they parroted the white house line for so long and have a large responsibility for the mess they are in. That and they realized after the elections that they will lose viewership if they dont shape up and at least pretend to be news people some of the time... Ok, back to work, vent closed for a few days.

damn skippy he's smart . . . i love that guy! -mrs ripley

been waiting patiently for Gabe's input (ahem... rant), and the man doesn't dissapoint! right on.