Poor apprentices

I understand that an apprenticeship is an education, which should be paid for, but how does an apprentice usually support themselves through this time?? Am I right in thinking that an apprentice pays their mentor X amount for a lengthy training and during this time they also work around the studio for free?? This is technically a full time job, how did some of you professionals out there survive??

i've been wondering the same thing myself. i approached a certain well known tattoo artist last year regarding an apprenticeship and was told that, though he was impressed by my drawing portfolio, the apprenticeship was going to cost $10, 000 in addition to two years of unpaid shop labor. as much as i respect his work, this was simply not an option for me. i've always understood an apprenticeship to be somewhat symbiotic in nature: the mentor imparts his or her hard earned knowledge upon the apprentice in exchange for free grunt work/ toilet cleaning for the agreed upon period of time. everyone wins. call me crazy, but to me this practice of expecting enourmous amounts of money from prospective apprentices will likely result in hard-working, talented artists being passed over in favor of those with $10, 000?

There are probably as many "deals" as there are tattoo artists. The artists get to choose their apprentice and the terms of their offer, the apprentice gets to choose to accept or not. It pays to be an informed apprenticeship seeker these days.

Oh, and from an un scientific survey of some of the top names in the industry, the really talented and serious future artist may start scratching out of ignorance or frustration before finding that apprenticeship and/or move great or small distances to eventually obtain said apprenticeship. And btw I'm not advocating or condoning or excusing the practice of scratching here, I never have and I never will. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just saying that it has happened... all of the big names who have admitted to it have always eventually "apprenticed" in one form or another by learning from or working alongside of professionals and have expressed dissatisfaction with their early career activities, becoming great, not because of the scratching, but inspite of it. If one cannot move to find an equally beneficial labor based apprenticeship, then maybe the $10,000 option is the only one available. How much is an apprenticeship worth? How much is a tattoo worth? How long is a piece of string?

i understand that "$10,000 guy" certaintly had the right to charge $10,000, i was merely questioning the wisdom (and expressing frustration) of his decision to do so. hell, he COULD have asked for $20,000 if he wanted to, but it probably still wouldn't have guaranteed he ended up with a committed, talented apprentice. i actually was willing to move to another state to appentice with him, but with all of the other financial strings attached, it simply became impossible.

just about the $10,000 part.... my first 2 years at a community college working towards teaching = $10,000 After this, i would have to do 2 or more years at a four year college, easily costing close to that for one year...bringing a total to over $30,000 easy, if not more. and that is just for a BA! many people are in at LEAST $50,000 of debt by the time they are out of school...especially with changing fields, higher degrees, etc....and then they may not even be working in their field. Now, re-think this. 2 years to be done with classes, and be able to start in your field, $10,000, it makes me wish that i wanted to be a tattoo artist.

that logic's ok, except that an apprenticeship is an apprenticeship and school is, well, school. when i went to a four year state college at a rate of about $7000/ year, i wasn't expected to also clean their toilets. again i didn't mean to sit here crying about how hard it's been getting an apprenticeship, nor question the value of a proper apprenticeship. simply to point out some of the barriers i've come up against. (i am currently apprenticing, though in a considerably more "humble" shop). by the way, ducky, congratulations on you decision to become a teacher. the world will benefit a lot more from one more teacher than one more tattoo artist (if only i liked kids as much as i like sweet tattoos...). gotta get to work, now. someone has to pay those student loans!

>>"when i went to a four year state college at a rate of about $7000/ year, i wasn't expected to also clean their toilets. "<< That logic's ok, except that school is school and an apprenticeship is, well, an apprenticeship.

lol...thanks. I know they don't expect you to clean the toilets...but you have to do a lot more than one thing in school too. Just think of it as Toilet 101 :D

Wow, loads of replies. The logic of paying for an education (college) versus paying for an apprenticeship makes sense. But what about people who want to become a tattooist AFTER college. Also, in England (where I am) you get an interest free loan to basically cover everything whilst studying and only start to begin paying it back when you graduate and have a job paying over £10,000. Plus having a part time job whislt studying is easy, I'm not so sure a full time apprenticeship and a part time job is. I'm sure you get loans and grants in the US aswell, but I don't know how the bank would feel about giving me 10 grand for an apprenticeship!! I just don't understand where people get the money from and how the live whilst working for free.

Poor Apprentices MY ASS!!...If ya want it bad enough you WILL find a way....I do think ten grand is pretty steep but then again is the artist worth it? i CAN THINK OF SOME WHO JUST MAY BE...SOME WHO i WOULD HAVE PAID ANYTHING FOR AN APPRENTICESHIP!!! I think too much is made about the " swabbing toilet thing" too. All of our people are treated with respect and yes they do have to swab toilets but then again I own the joint and by God If the shitter is shitty...I WILL SWAB that puppy MY DAMN SELF!!!. When you are thinking about apprenticing under an artist USE YOUR HEAD,,,if the artist treats you poorly or has an attitude then DON"T TAKE THE APPRENTICESHIP...being a mentor does not entitle you to be an asshole...there is nothing worth the loss of your dignity and self respect...its just not necessary So what it comes down to is a careful examination of your personal situation...the quality of the artist...and the attitude of both Just consider all facets very carefully and stick to your decision....TAz PS I apologize for not posting much in the past few days but we had an unexpected death in the family and it kinda threw me for a loop but I will be back full time soon!...T

I totally understand what your saying Taz. Hell, I would lick the bowl clean if it meant I was mentoring under an amazing artist. I'm not complaining (I swear). I was just wondering how apprentices survive with no salary. If you don't mind me asking Taz, how did you get through it?

Oh, and when I said Poor Apprentices, I didn't mean "poor", as in feel sorry for me. I meant "poor", as in no money.

Ah HA!!... How did I get through it?...Off site jobs...flippin burgers at a diner in south central LA....Doin 3 minute portraits in charcoal on the beach @$10 a pop....pinstriping 18 wheelers at truck stops...bouncing in seedy clubs at night...clean up guy at a funeral home...Eatin LOTS of Ramen noodles!...You get the picture...I DID WHATEVER IT TOOK!!!...And I would do it all again...in a heartbeat. If ya wanna be a tattoo artist you will BE a tattoo artist one way or the other...If ya start makin excuses about why ya can't just let it go cause ya never will be! I am not tryin to be an asshole it just comes out that way sometimes....but I am bein honest.....sacrifice builds soul and if ya ain't got soul ya ain't an artist!!....TAz

well if your working full time at the shop....looks like you will have to get another full time job during non shop hours to support yourself...its not going to be easy but it can be done and has been done.its up to you if your willing to put in the work to make it happen....

or have your spouse/mate/partner support you or become a stripper or escort or live in a homeless shelter or shag your mentor in exchange for the apprenticeship or find a better deal with someone else... the world is your crustacean!

No worries Taz. I like a guy who says it the way it is. I was just wondering if the average apprentice was born with a silver spoon in their mouth or if they spent every waking moment working. Seems like the latter :)

Def the Latter!

I really should mention that those days of constant toil ans sweat were without a doubt the best of my entire life... It aint the destination ...its the journey!...TAz

oh boy. even though i wasn't the original poster, it seems that i may have inadvertantly stirred up some shit (again with the toilets!). i didn't mean to imply that people shouldn't be able to humble themselves to a burger flipping/ ramen-eating lifestyle in order to achieve their goals . i've been there, and in my opinion anyone afraid to "clean the proverbial toilet" dosen't deserve to get too far in this life. (by the way, the artist asking for a crapload of money was most likely worth it. if i'd had it laying around, i'd probably be apprenticing with him right now. maybe i'm just bitter about not having $10,000...)

Totally Taz. We all saw LOTR!!

I didn't have to pay for my apprenticeship, a friend of my brother's was more than eager to teach me. But they had no room for an artist at his shop, and I did plenty of odd jobs and worked at some ghetto (we closed at night) tattoo parlors, barely scraping by, until I found steady work, almost a year later. Before that, I worked 2 jobs and went to art school. I lived off tuna fish in a can and those cheap supermarket brand noodles with butter. I got everywhere on a motorcycle, even in the snow. I was a bicycle messenger during the week, waited tables at night, and spent what little free time I had drawing. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

As far as I am concerned, the so called wannabe's that cannot handle the sacrifice it takes to learn a job skill that can make you money in just about any populated city on the planet regardless of the language barrier is a fool. I don't know any quality tattoo artists that don't genuinely love what they do for a living. Show me any other job or trade where you will find the same love for what they do. Even sports and rock stars don't always love what they do. Take away there millions and pay them a salary of 60,000 or so dollars and I'll bet we quickly run out of quality sports teams and good music. The art of tattooing has been handed down to people willing to work, pay their dues and sacrifice, time, money, sleep, social life and even family sometimes. If tattooing is what you want to do for a living, be willing to pay for your education by what ever means necessary. If your not willing, your not worthy. My current apprentice has been with me for over two years all while working a full time job running a print shop and being the boss of a dozen people. He would then come to the tattoo shop and scrub toilets, tubes, mop floors and anything else that was expected of him all without a single complaint. He also has a wife, child and a mortgage. He has a degree in Fine Arts from a great art school and is determined to be a great tattoo artist. He has what it takes to be among the best and has sacrificed a lot to get to this point. He has recently quit his day job and is a full time tattoo artist making better money than at the job he dreaded going to everyday. His sacrifices paid off for him and it has made him a better person and artist because of it all.

Hey Dan and tattoo city...Your replies were as usual right on the money...this art of ours can be a wonderful life and not just a job! Problem I see is that so many think it looks sooo easy and soo glamorous and that just ain't so ...right guys?..I don't know any successful tattoo artist that didn't sacrifice for this art...it just does not happen that way! So Dan and Tattoo city hows biz?.....TAz of Painted Angel. By the way..... We will be opening the new shop Painted Angel Too! in Fort Collins Colorado soon and will be booking guest artists within the next few weeks for the coming year...throw me an e-mail guys and that goes for all you pros who want to guest in a kick ass upscale studio! Thanks...TAz

Taz, Biz has been quite good lately but it has come at great sacrifice with lots of blood sweat and tears. I have spent sixteen years in this field of art and paid many dues including forty stitches to the head, pipe bombs, broken windows, stolen signs and even attempted arson. Most of the new wannabe's in tattooing today will most likely never know the old school ways of this business, lucky for them. Especially considering that they whine about cleaning toilets or having to pay thousands of dollars for their education. When I started in this business I worked seventy to ninety hours a week seven days a week and even went over seven months without a single day off at one point. When any of you wannabe's muster up the love and balls enough to see something through to that extent then you will have won my respect. Until then quit whining and pay your dues. Good luck with the new shop, Larry

Hey Larry...You and I obviously came up in the same world.....people in the biz today just do not realize how it was for us years ago...there was no politically correct attitude...i am not sure that I don't prefer those days! So many people forget where we came from...God it was a different world!! But life moves on and so must we...TAz PS remember the guest artist offer!!!!...T

Sorry if this post offended/annoyed any of the professionals out there :-/ I've done my fair share of hard graft to get to places I wanted to be. I wasn't complaining, just curious. But I totally agree with what you're saying Larry - a grand don't come for free.

No offense at all man hope we answered your question ...we sometimes (usually ) find a way to get off topic!!! LOL!!!...TAz