Rape or Compliment?

Reading the thread about the Maori designs, I can't help but wonder about all of the other cultures who are being robbed. I realize that the Maori is an especially touchy matter since the population is so small, but even if it wasn't, would it be right to take designs? Celtic, Japanese, Hida...these are all used in tattooing the whole world over by many people that have absolutely no cultural or emotional link to the cultures these designs came from. I'm not saying that ALL people who get these designs done have no link to them through spirit or blood, but a pretty good chunk. Basic visual appeal is the driving force for most people. Should that be enough? I'm personally irritated when people want a list of nouns (love, water, brave, ect) in an asian text but look at me like confused puppies when I explain to them that it may change the meanings of the words if they're grouped together. And it REALLY bugs me when these people don't understand that Jappanese and Chinese are completely different languages or that there are few different 'alphabets' in Japanese. This shows me that these people have no idea what they are asking for and that they have no respect for the culture they are raping. But then on the other side of the argument there's the inevitable disolving of seperate cultures due to globalization. People are becoming more intermingled and the lines are so blurred at this point that they're mostly smudges. If the cultures are disolving, is it ignorant to expect that their bounderies will not?

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE!!!! I admit some of it is intruiging and pretty... But that is something that we do not have a part in... They do it as part of thier culture... We do it for asthetics... 7

I dunno.. I think you should only get Asian letters if you've spent the time and dedication to learn the language.. I had a best friend who wanted to tattoo "shimai" the Japanese word for sisters on her foot along with three or four of her friends.. She asked me to find the kanji for her.. but thankfully, I was able to change her mind.. I didn't spend four years + learning Japanese just to be hit up for kanji characters when people want some tattoo.. get a grip.. seriously, if you couldn't recognize it before you put it on your body.. don't get it done.. maybe my brain is fuzzy from recreating Giza out of little magnets.. but.. I feel that doing something just for asthetic is definitely cultural rape.. if you have no tie to that culture whatsoever.. you're stealing from them to make yourself pretty.. find something that means something to you personally before you get a tattoo.. your tattoo should always mean something to you, and not just decorative.. (this is really refering to no one in particular.. I just feel like writing in 2nd person)

Well, here's another way to look at it. I am an white boy, an American, and have never set foot in Mainland China. My mother spent 4 years in Okinawa growing up, but alas, she was white as well. When my mother was growing up, for a long time there, she was raised by Okinawan family, who taught her a lot about thier culture and belief systems, and gave her an appreciation for that culture that many Americans never get a chance to know. As I was growing up, my mother taught my brother and I quite a bit about Okinawa, and it's culture, and many Japanese customs, and an appreciation for their culture became an ingrained part of our life. I could use chopsticks like a pro at 6 years old. I grew up with my mom making traditional Japanese cuisine, (some kinda yucky) but as a result of all that, an appreciation for the beauty of Japanese culture and art is ingrained in my being. But what if it wasn't? When I became a young adult, this ingrained appreciation for Asian culture led me to become a part of the Martial Arts world, where I studied Pai Lum (Chinese Kung Fu) first, and then ultimately, went on to become a 3rd Degree Black Belt in Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung (Kung Fu San Soo), and ultimately wound up teaching and participating in this art for over a dozen years. During that time I developed many, many Chinese friends, and a real appreciation and understanding of many aspects of Southern Chinese martial arts and culture... sometimes more than I wanted. I devoted a dozen years, 37 broken bones and a collapsed lung to that art, and the Asian culture that is integral to it's understanding became a big part of my life. Did I earn it? Should I have had to? So, when I decided to get my first tattoo to honor my daughters, I chose a design which is argueably similar to traditional Japanese work. I chose to do that because I just really appreciate the beauty of the Japanese style of tattooing, and wanted to honor that. I had the words "For my Beloved Daughters" added in a very ancient form of Chinese Script that many young Chinese people today wouldn't even be able to read? Why? Because it was translated for me by a little old Chinese lady like 89 years old who was very proud to write it for me. I don't think she thought I was raping her culture. In fact, I think it was an honor for her to see that somebody still cares about the old ways regardless of the culture. And yeah, I'm sure that's what it says, I had it translated 4 times total with the same results. Could I have put that in English on my arm? Sure. Why didn't I? Because I also teach theory and history of Design, and I just really feel this particular form of script has the most beautiful flowing presence, and actually, I think most people would agree that Asian brush script forms of all types are among the most beautiful forms of communication known to man. In fact, in China, Calligraphy is the Highest form of art... higher than even the war arts. To be considered a great calligrapher would be an untouchable honor. Well, that's the great thing about appreciating other cultures. In my opinion, our Latin Alphabet just doesn't quite cut it in the beauty area compared to the Asian cultures... it's roots are much more utilitarian, and hence, in my opinion, so is it's presentation. If you're gonna put something on your body for the rest of your life, you may as well love it, right? So the question is, am I raping their culture, or honoring thier culture? I guess it depends on how you look at it. However, I don't think anything done in the spirit of worship, or appreciation could ever be considered a rape. Anyway, just my 2 cents. (I will admit though, It does get a little old watching the endless parade of people running around with "Kanji" symbols on their bodies that are supposed to be one-word nouns like "Brave" or "Fire" or "Strong". Interestingly enough, many of the words a lot of us would like to have tattooed on us in Kanji don't actually exist in the way we'd like them to. That is to say, there may not actually be an Asian word for that Western concept you are trying to get across. By the way, Kanji isn't exactly the be-all end-all Asian system of writing. This is going to come as a shock to some people, but guess what? There are lots of them!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway....

Al.. I completely agree with you.. it's not cultural rape.. it's showing an appreciation for something you grew up with.. essentially, growing up that way, even though you're white.. you're a part of Asian culture.. I don't see a problem with that.. especially since you've dedicated your life to that culture.. granted, I haven't had nearly as much time as you have.. but I've spent the past 4+ years learning Japanese, learning about the Japanese culture, I lived in Japan with a Japanese family, attended school in Japan.. though math class was waaaaaay beyond me.. I mean.. calculus.. hell, I barely passed Geometry in English.. I know more alphabets than most people.. though one of them is still incomplete... I just feel that people who do it just because it's pretty.. should be.. hung by their toes for awhile..

D.R, I think your reasoning for getting yours is obviously alot different from the average butthead who hasn't a clue as to the tradition and/or cultural meaning behind 'oriental symbols' and just wants it to be 'cool' or trendy and more often than not, hasn't a clue as to what the symbol actually means. Personally, I think it has alot to do with 'why' they want it, if it's well thought out and properly researched, I don't have a problem, necessarily but if it's just to look cool or because their friends did it, well that's a different situation and I point out to them that it's very disrespectful to that culture and that I won't be a part of that disrespect. Frankly, I don't think I feel too sorry for the people who get a symbol that they later discover has a different meaning than what they thought and damn, have I seen a shithouse full of those. I'd also like to mention that 'oriental' calligraphy should only be done in solid black, not these two-tone travesties I constantly see. When I was in Japan (on R&R) I saw it being done, it's done with a paint brush and a pot of black ink, it's never done red & yellow or any of the other weird colors I've seen it done and that, IMO would probably be more offensive to the people to whom it's part of their heritage....Doc

As usual Doc and I agree on this subject...To get a Kanji or any foreign language just because its "cool" is decisedly UNCOOL....now if there is a reason, and there could be a myriad of reasons to honor a people and/or their culture, then sure...go for it...just do your homework.

I agree. If you have a true and valid reason for getting a tattoo of another culture, then by all means do it. If you're doing it because all your friends have a 'cute little kanji symbol' on their ankle/foot/lower back...etc. Then you are a fucking moron, who should be shot.

Two cents from someone of a newer culture, that has been both raped and complimented a bit. I don't know if my feelings about the use of Jamaican imagery and Rasta colours and imagery are similar to how someone from an ancient culture would feel, but here goes. Rape or compliment - it all depends. The main considerations would be appropriateness and intent. I don't feel good when there is even an implicit assumption that Jamaica = shiftless, pot-headed, etc etc. You can see such things on coffee mugs and t-shirts everywhere. And i'm sure someone is sporting it in their skin. If, however, someone tatts on a sensitive lion-of-judah, or uses red-gold-and-green with some respect for what it's supposed to mean, that can be pleasing. But whatever the cultural reference is, you might want to keep in mind that somebody from the culture you're referencing will never ever look at you as more than a yankee enthusiast. Consider, as an American, how you would think/feel about, say, an Indian Hindu who chooses to ink himself with a bald eagle or something (i've seen such things). Do you feel complimented? Do you feel anything at all, or do you simply put him in a category?

God I love this. What a decent, intelligent thread. Now this is what these conversations should look like. All of these are great considerations, and great points. I agree with all of you guys on what you said and the points you brought up. Wow. Don't know what to say! When it goes like this, it's like... DING! A light goes on in the Universe!!! Let's do more of these!! That was cool! p.s. Doc John brought up one particularly great point about the color too... he's absolutely right... if you are going to do anything in an Asian script in a traditional way, it would have to be black, due to original materials. The color stuff is just stupid. That's like something you'd see in vinyl on the windshield of one of those street racer cars. God I love it!!! MORE MORE!!!!

Perhaps the reason some people want a tattoo in a language they haven't studied is because they don't want to be judged on its content as much? Even something innocuous like "Hope" or "Love" could mean you're branded as hopelessly sentimental or flaky... but in a foreign language, people notice the shape first. Two of my tattoos are done in English instead of ancient Hebrew, because I would have had to make the letters really warped so they'd stand out as more than dots and lines on my back. I wanted to have the hebrew transliteration of "je'shua masiach" (yeshua messiah, or Jesus Christos in the greek.. Jesus Christ.) And yeah, I've studied both those languages and did the translations myself. I do get weirder looks for having "Jesus Christ" on a shoulder blade. And a few people have looked at me like I'm a religious nut.... and sometimes I wish I could have done something they wouldn't judge me on right away. But it looks way better in the script I chose, and I'll take aesthetics over people's judgements any day.

i didn't spell the translations right, in case you're wondering :P lol.. and I forgot.. my triquetra is part of my cultural heritage.. it is a little dumb to see it on other people, but it is so visually appealing to see Celtic knotwork that I excuse them a little... wanting some "cool" tattoo or foreign lettering because its trendy is a bit of a different story. I think I get more irritated by tribal pieces. some have meanings, some don't, and almost no one knows what's what.

Meredith, regarding your statement 'I think I get more irritated by tribal pieces. some have meanings, some don't, and almost no one knows what's what.' I'd like to point out that what is commonly refered to as 'tribal' has absolutely no meaning that I know of, it's simply black geometric designs. While there are indeed many true tribal type tattoos, Samoyian, Polynesian and Celtic, to name a few, the stuff most people refer to as 'tribal' isn't of any real 'tribe' I've ever heard of and again, to the best of my knowledge, does not have ANY real meaning, so let's not confuse it with any true 'tribal' tattooing which DOES have a meaning. Just wanted to set the record straight ...Doc

I just posted something similar in another thread. It bothers me to see people choosing Celtic or Kanji or any other design for the simple reason of "it looks cool". They have no idea what it means, what it represents, and they really have no emotional tie to their tattoos. If someone studied and researched the meanings of the design, and really appreciated the culture, and knew their shit, that's of a different way. But to just get something "because, dude, like, that is so FREAKIN awesome lookin, like, I have to have it"... that shits gotta stop. As for the tribal... tribal has become an Americanized concept at this point. Tribal used to have meaning, used to represent something. Now, Tribal is black lines drawn in an attractive manner, therefore having NO meaning whatsoever, it is simply aesthetic. I've been wishing for years now that the artists would start trying to change the name of "tribal" tattoos, as they are NOT tribal in any form. It's actually disrespectful/insulting to those of REAL tribal heritage that their artwork and thousands of years of culture have be taken, twisted, and changed into something meaningless and trivial, most often received by silly high school kids. So, I would suggest that the serious artists work on trying to change the name to something more appropriate ;)

So, sounds like the general consensus is that if you wish to get a tattoo concerning somebody's culture, just make sure you do it in an honorable way. In my opinion, I don't see where the issue is...and I'll explain why. When you go and get a tattoo, you make sure it's going to be something that you are happy with for a long long time, so usually something that is meaningfull to you. You also don't wanna fuck something up, and want it to be the best that it possibly can be, so, you do your research. So if you treat these cultural tattoos like you would any other tattoo, and do your research, I think that you at least are showing some respect to the culture you are contributing to your body. It's as simple as that, take the time to learn about what you are puting on you, it's enlightening, and when somebody asks you about that tattoo, you can explain to them what it means and enlighten somebody else about a culture they otherwise would've never known about. I'm personally not going to put anything on me concerning a culture that feels the need to keep everyone out. Wearing something honoring somebody's culture is just that, HONORING, it's not dragging it through the mud, and it definitely doesn't make me a part of that culture. Maybe I'm completely wrong, and just don't get it, because in my eyes, I love to share everything I know with people. And if my way of living somehow inspired somebody else to get a tattoo because of that, or if they appreciated my artistic culture enough to put on their own BODY, the most sacred canvas there is if you ask me, I'd be fucking proud. But that's just me, I love people, and anything I can do to help somebody grow in mind and spirit, it's one of the greatest feelings to me. So yeah, I understand people not wanting everyone wearing their culture carelessly, but I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to share their culture...to me, that just sounds like somebody who isn't proud of what they are. So to reiterate...Supporting somebody's culture, as long as you do your homework and understand what it is you are getting, sounds like a good thing to me, and on the flipside, grabbing a symbol or something else just cause you like the way it looks, and that noun describes you so perfectly...is like getting just another dumb tattoo, not to mention disrespectful to the culture in which it represents. Guess that means, like almost everything else involving what kind of tattoos people get, there's exceptions, and that wonderful phrase, "it depends". Jeremy

There seems to be a theme developing here that a tattoo should have some sort of meaning or story, or significance, or something about it that makes it special... I happen to be in that camp for sure, so don't get me wrong, but there is a different camp that would say that if you like it, who cares? That's good enough. Now, I happen to be in the first camp, but if you apply the same aesthetic law to tattoos that you do to fine art, or the concept of art in general, you could probably have a lot of really good heated dicussions about art for art's sake, and people should get whatever they want, wether it has meaning or not. What a great topic! Maybe we should hit that too!! Also, I agree. Tribals are not tribals. What tribe? Maybe a more accurate description would be "Primitive"? I dunno. Basically I just see it as gemometric like Doc John said. I personally feel that if you look at most indigeonous cultures around the world, no matter which area, it would be really hard to separate ceremonial and religeous meaning tradition and meaning from the practice. I would argue that since the beginnings of human culture, tattooing has been tied to a higher command than purely aesthetic. Therefore, I'll stay in the first camp. But boy, what an all-star discussion all around!

Again Jeremy, another really good post. Ya snuck that one in behind mine somehow. This is really great stuff. Kudos to all of you guys...

Thanks...I'd like to touch on the art for arts sake too, just for fun and discussion purposes. Now, when I got my first, (and only so far, cause I'm broke) tattoo, I did indeed get a primitive design :), between my shoulder blades. That was only three months ago, I hadn't found this site then, and I was surely very ignorant about the whole process. Don't get me wrong, I love the tattoo, because I did indeed get it for aesthetic purposes, I like the way it looks. But now I find myself thinking someday I'd like to have it covered, for none other reason that I could have something more meaningful...but like I said, I do love it, so, no rush, and definitely no regrets. The only thing I feel bad about is wasting the artists time. Now, I could sit here and argue about my tattoo until the thing falls off, about how it can be just about the art, ect. Well, I think that's great, but, I'm going to sit in the first camp anyways because I don't believe art is art for art's sake. Poll...how many artists here simply bust out a piece of art, puting shapes here and there just because that's how you put them together? And then, how many of you put your anger, your sadness, happiness, your emotions and hard work into your art? Art isn't art for art's sake, because behind every great piece, somebody's passion lies there. I'm a happy guy, but you know, sometimes I just like to throw on a really heavy cd, and draw something really fucked up. It's my small way of letting my demons out, of coping with the world. I care about my artwork, and as such my emotions get involved. The same is going to apply to tattoos. We're talking about somebody's passion here. That artist is puting a part of him/herself into you. To me, that's just personal, and I don't see how you can look at it as "just art". Yeah, I got a simple design on my back. I know you can look at it as "just art"...that's why I dont mind my tattoo, like I said, I love it, because I like the way it looks...I just don't like the way it feels. And I think that if you ignore the feeling in art, you're missing the picture, literally...and correct me if I'm wrong...I think I might be off on the concept of "art for arts sake" Jeremy

Man these are some really good posts. I like this thread.

Seems like we are getting a higher intellect on here Al...what dya think?...

Yeah! This is fantastic!! Some rockin' stuff going on here! Just hope "BabyWolves" doesn't catch wind of this... (lol)

Regarding my post on tribal.. I was just trying to be concise.... In general the fact that I can't look at someone's tattoo and say "that's a trendy piece" or "that has some real meaning and they probably researched it and have a respect for that culture" reflects my ignorance. I'm not sure how to remedy that. The lack of differentiation between actual tattoos of different cultures, and what is termed "tribal" is what I find irritating. As an average person who would like to know what's what when it comes to those things, even though I don't want one tattooed on me, I don't have a lot of information on it, and very few people know the differences between so-called and actual pieces. Not that I want to know so I can judge the person wearing the tattoos, I'd just like to know.. y'know? lol.

Wow! It seems like this thread has raised the whole forum's IQ a fews points... Anyway on to the subject at hand. I personally plan on at least one tattoo to represent each part of my heritage. I'm still researching a lot of it to find just the right design and placement for each. When done I plan on it all being a back piece framing another image. Personally, I'm Irish, Norwegian, Welsh, English, and Cherokee. For my european side I'm looking into family crests and designs, but I'm having trouble deciding for my native american part. I know I will have one foreign language tattoo other than any that might be part of that. My reasoning behind it is it symbolizes things about me and my life that their culture holds sacred and having been to the country, I fell in love with their culture. I will eventually go there again, but I will have the tat for meaning, reverence and asthetics. My question is what might the natives of that country think about it?

Hey Keaz...Hows your wife comin along?...I haven't heard from ya lately ...just wonderin!!

What would people who are from that country think about it? of our Chinese and Korean friends, they have no problem if someone has been to the country for an extended time or otherwise has good reason to appreciate it. But they don't like the trendy characters. As someone of Irish and Scottish descent, I don't mind the Celtic designs on others.. again, their aesthetic value alone means some people might just like the designs. Plus, things like the triquetra have been used in so many religions that a single meaning is quite elusive. But if you got a family crest (like my mother's, the Davidson crest).. I'd be pretty pissed, because that's a big part of my heritage and you dont' have the history behind it.

I think we have pretty much concluded that as long as its not a trendy fad thing you are just gettin cause all yer frat bros or soroity sisters have em and ya really have an affinity for the culture in question, its ok to pretty much get what ya want as far as culturally designed tattoos.....I don't think it would ever be appropriate to get a family crest that wasn't YOUR family crest and wouldn't that be really stupid?....MOST tribal isn't really tribal at all...ummm lessee... Oh yeah...listen to yer artist...if he won't do what ya want there is probably a reason...but if ya still insist on that John Denver portrait just go down the street the other shop will probably do it for ya... THINK BEFORE YA INK!!!!

She's still at the shop as an advanced apprentice... learning and tattooing overflow customers. It's Timeless Art in San Antonio.

great read folks. the only thing I would have to add about characters/words of any language is the old saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words". skin real estate is very very valuable... make the most of it.