Self Taught -VS- Apprenticeship (No Shit Slingin')

OK, lets make this simple..... I want a vote for either 1.Self Taught........ or 2.Apprentice...... Lets keep the shit slinging away from this post and just see what happens in the end, i know most people are gonna do the old "go get an apprenceship you scratching HIV spreadin' fucks, But seriously i'd like to know how many "pros" or "vets" or "studio owners" or whateva people want to call themselves, have actually become who they are by getting self taught, not being told what to do by some asshole who just wants an extra $$$ in his pocket... before the shit slinging starts we all heard and read the arguments for each side in the 100 feeds on these topics..... and the pros and cons of each choice like proper blood borne pathogens and hygeinic sterilizations..blah blah blah.....weve read it all Lets just take the vote... pro's and scratchers alike lol

Is this a vote for how you were taught or how you think its responsible to be taught? Cause most self taught tattoo artists who are good will pretty much always tell you they didnt get good until they started working and learning from other artists and dont recommend it. Its also VERY important that people put clear links to their portfolio next to their vote. I want to be clear that a very important part of the apprenticeship/mentoring process is to insure the safety of the communities skin. Our apprentices have the skill and reputation of our studio behind every single tattoo our apprentices do. If you are teaching yourself, the public does not have that skill insuring their skin is safe.

i know the right or responsible thing to do is apprentice, but i just want to hear from people who maybe did self teach and are now pretty succesful?

While I trust it very clear what I think about you and your points of view regarding this profession, Dylan, I'd like to pose a question before I answer or think you even have the right to pose your question. Just how did you 'learn', on one hand you seem to insinuate you are 'self taught' but in your post under 'Australian Studios' you claimed to have served an apprenticeship (posted 9/19/08). IMHO you really should answer before you can honestly expect to come on this site and ask your question. (No 'shit slinging', just fact)

So basically your asking what the percentage of successful tattoo artists fucked up the publics skin for years despite being told how to learn without fucking up the publics skin. A better question is how long did it take to work off the bad karma you built up by learning at the publics skin expense for all those years.

Very well said, Gabe although I'd think you know better than to expect an intelligent response.

Here's my stance. I am self-taught. I believe there are NO secrets left in tattooing and I also have been able to get my hands on The Best equipment and from the best suppliers without any deciet on my part. Point being, I tried to do things as legit as I could regarding equipment, knowledge, safety, etc... I believe I have learned a lot about the theory of all aspects of tattooing (not all there is to knowm duh, just a lot). However, being "book smart" on the technical aspects of tattooing does not mean that you can be physically good at it without proper guidance. I believe to actually become good at applying tattoos you must get tattooed, watch pros tattooing and be supervised upon laying your first tattoos. I also think that when you are self taught, not only are you subject to trial and error and lot's of scews ups but you also don't tattoo enough to get into the routine of safety so that it becomes 2nd nature. Or tattooing often enough to improve and learn more quickly. From my experience, it is ok to learn about safety, equipment, etc.. But I feel you pick up bad mistakes by using a tattoo machine w/o an apprenticeship, habits that are hard to undo. I think grapefruit and practice skins are crap and scarring yourself up is silly (speaking from experience). I think tattooing should only be done when you mentor tells you it's appropriate. There are scratchers, hackers (in shops), "ok" shops and then there's the great artists of our time. If your goal isn't to be the best, then you have to ask yourself what you're in it for..the money? The "cool" factor? I'm not saying that everyone has to be the next Nikko but I think ppl need to be honest about their work and either improve (on paper) and then learn the right way or realize it's not for them. So yeah, I believe that ultimately an apprenticeship is the best way to go. You can see my non-pro work at www.inksaneart.com

2 Of course make sure your mentor(s) don't suck. I'd get to know them awhile before committing to anything. I've been offered apprenticeships in the past but they were unreliable people with unclean habits. 3 year 35hours per week committment here in N.H. so shop around. Make sure they'll be around for you. No matter where you live I would figure on 2 years at least before mentor signs off on you to be licensed. Lots to learn. I also believe the apprenticeship should be worked off; not money up front to the mentor. I almost paid 5,000 to one guy but saw I was getting obviously bad advice and he was high on something the second day asking for the check so I left. He's out of business now too I noticed this summer. He did however have alot of great work in his portfolio. I'd have had incomplete training and all my saved funds depleted.

I'm just a newbie but after months of battling on my own I'd have to say having a mentor is probably the right way to go.. "Trial and error " is just too messy.. great idea in theory.. doesn't really work in practice. This is coming from someone who has downloaded every damn book and bought every shitty piece of equipment.. no longer too proud to admit I need some help.. I know there are some fantastic artists out there who taught themselves but I'm pretty sure there was a solid reason they couldn't learn from someone and probably would have preferred to. I know I would if I could.. just being honest.

Another insightful post from someone 'outside the profession' with the wisdom to actually understand what many of us have been trying to explain for so damned long. And, as to the part of some good tattoo artist who did get good on their own, without apprenticing, again, I, for one know and concede that FACT (as I've stated before) BUT, for every one of those there are hundreds who are not good, never will be and some that don't give a damn, all they want to do is 'tat' people and argue with anyone who tries to tell them that it isn't the right way. AND, as has been stated, MOST of those who did learn on their own readily admit it was not the best way and MOST admit they really got much better after working with people who did know the right way because they HAD apprenticed. Again, it is really good to hear this from someone whose 'been there, done that' and HOPEFULLY it may give some of the haters something to at least think about. Again, Tam Tam, thanks for posting.

Ok, I know this argument has gone on for countless threads, however, I hope this will enlighten some of the people that have a hard time understanding things in perspective. Firstly, let us say that you were raised by pygmies out in the bush. Then you were miraculously saved and came to america. Your beard is long and you are offered a towel, soap and a brush, and a straight razor. Would you even know what to do? How many of you would shave with a straight razor? Would you know what each of the instruments are for? The most important question. Would you be good at it? Second, make a cake without reading a recipe book. You have all of the ingredients. Without ever having seen one made, could you put one together? How many "experiments" would it take to get one that was edible? I would also believe that it takes much less time to learn to make a cake than it does to tattoo competently. How many tattoos will it take you to become proficient beyond Kanji and small tribals? Fifty? One hundred? Five hundred? If you do them out of your house, how many can you do in one month? At most shops I've been in (including the one I now own) I do sixty and eighty a month (yes, street level shop, only about fifty percent custom). So if you say you have five years experience, but only do five a month, that is literally like working in my shop for only five months. Now, would you go to a professional tattooist for something large and intricate that you want perfect if he has only been tattooing for five months? I would hope not. However, I also believe that if you are an honest person and tell the client that has agreed to be tattooed by you that you have only done thirty tattoos and what he should expect, then, caveat emptor.

Personally, I think that was an excellent post, very much to the point and factual.

stupid thread.

How about if we ask this question: "Doctors that learn medicine by slicing people in their kitchen and watching nip/tuck" or vs "the ones that spent years in the university burning their eyes studying from the masters of medicine." What would you answer be in this case. I think when it comes to tattooing, something that involves a surgical procedure, priorities are not much different when it comes to the safest way to performing the practice. I do have to add a note to this post that not everything apprenticeship is good ad that you would have to do your research to find a mentor worth the time of learning from. In other words, not every single mofo with a shop is suitable to teach the craft right.

Good anology, FK and I'm in total agreement about the part of being sure the person someone chooses to mentor should be very carefully chosen. I have heard of people who have only been tattooing a year taking on apprentices, which is ridulous and wrong as hell. Unfortunately, this too I think is part of what's happened since tattooing has become so 'mainstream', not only does 'everyone and their brother' want to be a tattoo artist, there are the unscrupulous schools and 'teachers' whose only real concern is the almighty dollar. The sad thing, the fact that it is so difficult to get an apprenticeship from someone who truly does know what they are doing/teaching 'feeds' those parasites, which, in turn, puts more and more shitty 'tattooers' out here for the rest of us to contend with and damn it, they're everywhere nowadays, especially in this country.

You guy's crack me up, I am not, nor have i ever been a tattooist, scratcher or kitchen magician, I was thinking about it but I think I'd rather be kicked in the nuts every day. lol, I love how none of you can answer the simplest of questions with out bringing up the you need this you need that argument. The question was: How did YOU start? Not, "what in your professional opinion do you think the proper approach to becoming a tattooist is?" You all wonder why people think your assholes, there's your answer!!!

I guess thats because the original question is stupid, and the results meaningless, though, scratchers will try to use it as proof thats its ok to learn irresponsibly.

Hey,Gabe, to be fair, I think a lot of us who are self taught are so well intentioned and really do want to do it right. Because I did things carefully, I put myself above the "typical and dirty scratcher". But I have come to the conclusion that no matter how hard you try on your own, it simply isn't good enough. And b/c I truly do respect the craft anf potential clients, I have chosen not to tattoo anymore until I can get propper guidance. Again, especially due to the internet, there really are no secrets anymore, so it gives you al false sence of truly learning. But, again, there's a huge difference between learning the theory of applying a tattoo vs. actually executing a good quality tattoo. At the same time, I would think that the net would at least be good for pounding certain things into a "scratchers" head, like cross contamination and such. It's not quite the same as before the net when ppl would buy a kit out of the back of a mag and start tattooing with absolutely zero knowledge. So, for ppl like me, it is so disgusting when I see pics of ppl tattooing in their livingrooms, on a couch, over carpet with no gloves or other protective barrier....etc Not to mention the shitty tattoos. So, on one hand, I can still sympathise w/ ppl like me who are well intentioned. However, I also fully understand where the true pros are coming from.

Gina, while I know your post was directed at Gabe, not me and that we have had 'issues' in the past, I'd still like to comment on this particular post of yours. Fact is, I think it may well be the best post you have ever posted and not only do I wish to thank you for posting it, I want to state that I can and do understand/agree with what you said. Personally, I think it is a great post, addresses the 'issue' very well and one I really hope people will read and think about.

The question may be stupid to you, but to someone, it just may have some relevance, the point i was making is the attitude that a lot of the "professionals" have. (Thanks for making my point) I get that the "professionals" are trying to keep people from home tattooing and I would never get a tat from some jackass working from their basement, regardless of how "good" their work was. But that shouldn't be a reason to talk shit about someones question or even for the "professionals" to use THIS and EVERY opportunity to beat this dead horse. I've only been reading this forum for a day and I'm already sick of hearing how you should get a apprenticeship. To the other person that talked about secrets, the only people that are allowed secrets is our government, welcome to the information age!! My personal opinion is just that MINE. You do not have to like it any more than i like yours, good day to you all. "Move along newbies and outsiders there's nothing to see here." LOL

John, Thanks man, just trying to be honest w/ myself and true to the profession. :)

N/A, It's only beating a dead horse if you're talking to the same ppl over and over. But there are always newbies popping up and showing their ignorance and disrespect. And just why would a respectable professional not call someone out for being anything less? If you are not a tattooist and know better than to get tattooed in someones basement, then why would a pro tattooist not be outraged by this? It's done poorly, causes pros to have to fix scratcher's mess-ups andthis poor and dirty work makes the entire industry look bad. Personally, I don't think these scratchers threaten the talented artist. Although, it does keep the industry with a bad rep. IMO

Oh, and I forgot to mention how many ppl fail to read the "stickied" topics on the top of this forum, including what to do to get an apprenticeship.

I'm not saying its not worth talking about, what I'm saying is its not worth talking about on every thread, do I think you should give all your secrets up? NO, You guys are dense though, I was merely pointing out the fact that no matter what the thread you guys are running your pie holes about how its not okay to be a home tattooer. As a person from the outside looking in, I see it like this, you should look at a thread, if you can answer the question, answer it, if you cant, don't, the shit bags will go away if they don't get the answers they want. Alright I'll get off my soapbox, I love the work you all are doing, and if nothing else its been comical, it really made my day to read all the ignorance!! Peace out, Ed BTW, I was not born with the gift of the artist but I was born with the gift of logic and reason, guess you can't have both!!

Why is it in any way ignorant to want to protect your chosen profession from looking bad? Remember, N/A, I said I was self taught and I am mostly playing devil's advocate. I understand that too many tattooists run their mouths but it's disrespectful and rude the way some of these newbies expect something for nothing. If I was a Dr. and someone asked me how to perform an appendix surgery and what impliments I would need, I would be highly offended and frightened by what he/she may do to the public. And I would not be inclined to keep my mouth shut. I'd have a lot to say about it. Maybe that's preachy but, shit, who would just ignore that? Many tattooist have worked very hard to make this profession look and BE better both safety-wise and artisticly speaking. So when outsiders make them look bad, damn right they're gonna be pissed. Having said that though, you can't change the world, only how you do things. And I think each tattooist needs to be more quiet (genherally speaking) and really and truly mind what they are doing and how they are making the industry look - because there are also a lot of pros who embarrass this industry.

Respect is earned not given, so if I get none I give none. I have read some pretty harsh things on here by so called profesionals, and honestly I would'nt piss on thier feet if thier shoes were on fire. Learn to council in private and praise in public, that would begin to make your profesion look better. As to a Newbie or Outsider those are negative terms in the first place so try to avoid those labels. If a person asks a question here answer it, but be profesional about it! Calling someone names shows your lack of respect and this person is gonna ignore you forever. Showing respect and being helpful is gonna make this profesion of yours look better not ignoring people or talking down to them. Ranting about yourself and your GREAT achievents makes you look petty. If you do give advice make it positive, send people away feeling they are better off for having met you, not hating you to the point they will never trust you to answer a question again. (And remember a 'Gun' is a 'Machine' if I understand the difference and if you showed me the error to my ways with respect I will trust your opinion in the future.) ThinkB4Uink should become the new motto for your profesion.

I agree that respect is earned. It's not an automatic right. And I believe there are many professionals who deserve ZERO respect because of their varying views on the industry. I refuse to give respect to an elder tattooist who is close-minded, stuck in their ways and refuses to grow. I also HATE hypocrasy. To me, they are NO better than a scratcher. However, no one is obligated to answer any tech questions and be professional about it. What will it take to make some of you realize that you are degrading the artists and the art by expecting tech questions to be answered, over the net, for free? That in itself is disrespectful and makes respect towards you null and void. And if you are trying to learn, then you SHOULD give the artists you're asking questions to respect. In that case, you owe them the respect, not the other way around. God damn some of you people are stupid.