Something I just noticed...

Just looking through the classified... 10 wanted ads all EXP necessary? What no one is willing to training even though the need help?

A) If they need someone now, that means that they don't have the time to train someone (usually takes a minimum of 1 year in perfect conditions) B) Inexperienced artists work usually looks horrible and you don't want horrible work coming out of your shop for any reason. C)There are shops out there looking to apprentice, you just have to find them, and if it means you have to travel or relocate to get a good apprenticeship, then so be it.

"A) If they need someone now, that means that they don't have the time to train someone (usually takes a minimum of 1 year in perfect conditions)" Takes time, but if help isn't needed they don't hire apprentices because they don't need help. "B) Inexperienced artists work usually looks horrible and you don't want horrible work coming out of your shop for any reason." Everyone started somewhere. I realize you have a shop to run, but a talented aprentice can learn quickly if their dedicated. So, don't let them touch skin until they're ready, but it doesn't mean you have stop looking for an artist. "C)There are shops out there looking to apprentice, you just have to find them, and if it means you have to travel or relocate to get a good apprenticeship, then so be it." Tattooing is fairly lucrative minimum wage isn't. Some have other careers they can't afford to sacrifice.(Apprenticing doesn't pay and sometimes you have to pay for it.) People have bills to pay and sometimes kids or working partners. Moving isn't an option for most people. I hear scratchers saying, "I can't get an apprenticeship", then there's the artist crowd saying "excuses". I see ads for growing or busy businesses, but all I hear from shops are "EXCUSES"

"A) If they need someone now, that means that they don't have the time to train someone (usually takes a minimum of 1 year in perfect conditions)" Takes time, but if help isn't needed they don't hire apprentices because they don't need help. ***Could be a gentle way of saying you don't have the skills to become an apprentice here. Just because one wants to be a tattoo artist doesn't mean that they automatically deserve to have an apprenticeship handed to them. "B) Inexperienced artists work usually looks horrible and you don't want horrible work coming out of your shop for any reason." Everyone started somewhere. I realize you have a shop to run, but a talented aprentice can learn quickly if their dedicated. So, don't let them touch skin until they're ready, but it doesn't mean you have stop looking for an artist. ***Again, if someone wants to be a tattoo artist but has yet to prove themselves via drive, determination, talent and attitude, they can't expect things to be handed to them. Yes, everyone started somewhere, some people had it easier than others, but the common denominator that they all posess is that they did whatever it took to get that apprenticeship. There are also alot of people that started and never amounted to anything because their attitude and skill level were horrible, and when the didn't feel like becomming a tattoo artist anymore, you just never hear about them. "C)There are shops out there looking to apprentice, you just have to find them, and if it means you have to travel or relocate to get a good apprenticeship, then so be it." Tattooing is fairly lucrative minimum wage isn't. ***A good tattoo artist places the art far before the money to be made. Some have other careers they can't afford to sacrifice. *** Keyword, career, careers are chosen, and if one doesn't want to continue with their career, they have do what it takes to pursue another (regardless if it's tattooing or any other one) (Apprenticing doesn't pay and sometimes you have to pay for it.) People have bills to pay and sometimes kids or working partners. Moving isn't an option for most people. *** Again, if you want to change careers, most training of any other type of career (not job) requires a sacrifice in time and sometimes money. Moving is a very viable option for most people if their careers depended on it. You can't blame the tattoo community because you made a previous career decision and now you want to be like the guys on tv. One can always ask themselves why they didn't get into tattooing before having the career they had now, or before they had families, instead of being bitter towards shops that are convenient to get to that won't hand them an apprenticeship. I hear scratchers saying, "I can't get an apprenticeship", then there's the artist crowd saying "excuses". I see ads for growing or busy businesses, but all I hear from shops are "EXCUSES" ***Maybe they're legitimate reasons and not excuses. If a shop knows what they want for their shop and you don't fit the criteria, then it sounds more legitimate than an excuse. I can honestly say 9 out of 10 people that inquire about an apprenticship that I've encountered are not serious at all, have no artist portfolio, no training in anything that matters (art classes certifications, pathogens, anatomy, cpr, etc), the only thing they bring to the table is their friends tell them that they can draw really good, and even those can't draw what I would consider halfway decent with potential. You inadvertantly bring up a good point though that in many wannabe tattoo artists eyes, we're assholes no matter what. If we were straightshooting and told someone, "you know what, your work really sucks ass as if a 9 year old tried to draw, you have no talent to be here", we'd be assholes. If we're kind and nice about it, we're just giving excuses. Guess we can't win!

Then my advice.... Tell them bring a portfolio and if it sucks or they are late or there is a problem... They they won't know unless you tell them... If you're already assholes then what is there to worry about? Stop the scratchers that don't have talent by telling them their "art" sucks, who knows they might surprise you and practice. For that matter, let them sit in the shop and practice their art and possibly watch them... I'm not saying you have to let them tattoo. For that matter they could free up your time if you teach them to clean tubes, floors, etc... It's better than them screwing up their friends. TAZ told me it was 2 years before he was allowed to touch skin... They came to you for the apprenticeship because they were willing to be taught... If they say they don't have a portfolio, but "I can draw real good", say "Prove it." Then hand them a nice piece of paper and a good sharp pencil... Then when they can't be blunt, tell them "That sucks, but if you still want to learn.. I'll teach you to draw if you help clean every day." If they walk away they don't want it. If they can draw bad ass you have no excuse if they are willing to work for it. If you accept them give them an appointed time to be there. Test their work ethic.. If they are late tell, "You were late, obviously you don't want it bad enough yet. Come back in 6 months and next time be on time." If they want it they'll be back in 6 months or whatever. Anything you can to help keep them from scratching is a good thing. I won't be home for likely near 2 months but when I do get home. I will show every one here my wifes art and what she has done. Then tell me why you would turn her away. I ONLY ask ONE thing "OPEN YOUR F***ING DOORS"... you may not need it, but the industry needs it. It's takes 1 minute of your time to look at a drawing and tell them what you think is wrong with it. If they are cleaning your tubes, floors, etc... then that frees up more time than that. P.S. about switching careers and moving. A career pays, but it may not be the one they want.(could you Iive your next two years without being paid?) I sit on my ass all day and do practically nothing half the time at my job(that's when I'm online and still getting paid), but I hate my f***ing job. If someone would give me a job in town that paid even enough to barely cover my bills, I'd take in a heartbeat, even if it was shoveling crap. I don't mind a hard days work for good pay. I've been in the military and worked in the fields in High School. I was the supervisor's only hourly hand, because I worked my ass off. I got paid more than he paid his own family or the illegal that worked for him. Whatever job I'm in I do it and do it well. I'm in my career because it was what my stepfather does. I didn't have a "better" choice. I still look every time I come home for something local that pays. No luck yet. Sorry, If I rant about this, but I've personally see it. Driving my wife from shop to shop (She had no driver's license then and was taking buses for work until I made her quit.) and not one even asked if she could draw or where her portfolio was or if she should would pay or work for it. She was just turned away. What I want to know is why??? Why is the industry so tight what are you afraid of or what is the problem.

One final note. I'm not saying lead them on be as blunt as you can.. Then if they still continue to comeback and still continue that's when you give them a chance. AKA... An 18 year old wanna be walks into the shop. Him: "I want to become a tattoo artist. Can I get an apprenticeship?" You: "Do you have a portfolio?" Him: "No" You: "Can you draw?" Him: "Everyone says my drawings are great." You: "Prove it." (Handing him paper and pen/pencil) Him: "Ok" (Sits at a table) (Works a while) (Hand you his sketch) You: "This sucks. My 8yr old could do better. You need a lot more practice" Him: "Your just an a**hole" You: "Do you want to be an artist or not?" Him: "Yeah" You: "Get a sketch book and practice for a month and come back and let me see." One month later.... rinse and repeat and give advice on his work. 5 min a month and you might prevent a horrible scratcher and he might get better. You've been drawing since 5 maybe he has and only been drawing for like a year or two and decided he really likes art especially tattoos. If they're late to they first appointment. "Your late the first day and expect me to teach you? You obviously don't want it bad enough. Come back in 1 month on XX day at XX time and I might reconsider." If they want it they'll be back.(If they are late again then turn them away). If not then they didn't want it and it's no longer your fault. Long story short: Give everyone the opportunity to have a chance at getting an apprenticeship. I know many of the scratchers out ther today would have tried and tried again until YOU gave up on them. Those are individuals that would come to respect the art.

There are countless opportunites out there to achieve damn near anything. If you can't find them or take advantage of them, its your own damn fault. End of story.

Kaez, been reading your various posts since your first,' My Wife's work' and I've noticed you've posted alot on various subjects and have been given some pretty good advice and information by a number of professionals, including studio owners but I don't think you're 'listening' or perhaps not comprehending what you're being told, so I guess I'm just going to have to call you on that, particularily when you say 'then my advice' as you recently did. To begin with I should admit that at least part of my impression of you may well be influenced by the fact you couldn't hack it in the Marine Corps., admitted to dereliction of duty, not being at your assigned duty station and failing to obey a direct order, which to me anyways, says alot about your character in the first place. Yeah, I'm a Marine vet. However, what bothers me, seperately from that, is the fact that you don't seem to pay much, if any, real attention to what we've tried to tell you, no matter what you're told you continue to make lame excuses and even have the gall to try to 'give advice' on subjects you apparently don't really know all that much about, such as your comments on 'tips about opening a shop' to mention only one of many. I also noticed that you said your wife only got into a shop after leaving a business card advertizing 'free tattoos' which Taz and I both advised you was/is NOT a very bright idea and explained 'why' as well as advising it could effect her 'future' opportunities. You've made numberous mention of your 'career' being a reason you couldn't 'relocate' to persue other opportunities for your wife's desire to apprentice, then tell us ya hate your job and sound like you're just doing it for the money, so let's not confuse a job you have, apparently which you don't have to work very hard at which allows you so much time to post as much as you do, with a real 'Career', okay? As to what you say about all you hear from the shops are 'excuses', seems like it's you making a lot of the excuses, one after another and, again, in spite of the suggestions/advice you've been given. Stop arguing and/or making excuses and LISTEN/PAY ATTENTION to what we are trying to tell you and I'd definitely suggest you cease trying to give US 'advice' as to how we should 'do things', who the fuck do you think you are to give US advice, the hubby of a woman who does free tatts out of her home. That 'For that matter, let them sit in the shop and practice their art and possibly watch them.' comment makes me think you're suggesting we should become babysitters for someone who's taking up space in our studio and more often than not just going to learn just enough to think they can do it too, without the benefit or commitment of a 'full apprenticeship'. Do you seriously think about what you're about to say before you say it or are you just rambling 'cuz you're bored at work? Do you honestly have ANY concept of how much actual work is involved in properly training someone to actually know what they need to in order to be a good, SAFE tattoo artist and ALL that THAT entails? And who the fuck are YOU to tell US what 'the industry needs'? I do respect your right to voice your opinions but I also challenge your 'right' to tell us how we should run our studios or TELL us what the industry 'needs'. I might also suggest you think a bit more about what you post as I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking that no matter how much potential your wife may have, I don't think I'd apprentice her or have her in my studio if that meant having to deal with your shit and attitude, something you might want to think about (as I suggested before) And I'd like to point out this is from someone with almost 42 years involved in this profession....Doc

Well put Doc. The only thing I want to add is that I think Keaz is confusing what the tattoo community needs compared to what HE needs.

KEAZ...As Doc just said we have all been very patient with you and your posts on this forum...some of your ideas are seriously NOT based in reality...you are not listening or if you are listening you are completely disregarding what we professionals with many years in this business KNOW to be true....you constantly have arguments with what we are good enough to spend our time telling you and to be blunt, its gettin REAL old...You cannot say that we haven't been patient with you but here you are with a few tattoos and a wife that although she shows potential and I would put her to work immediately,she is STILL woking without license at home and you brag about her doing FREE tattoos...its getting to the point of being insulting to us....It seems as if you think we should take in every single person who walks through our doors and that is simply not possible...as was stated before 99% of the people who "want to learn to tattoo" in reality do not have the ability or are not willing to make the sacrifices necessary ( relocating,spendg the time necessary etc etc) to actually become a tattoo artist.. Man you need to back off!!...You give advice that you are not qualified to give...you encourage amateur tattooing etc etc etc Trying to be nice man but its getting to the point that we are gonna not be nice... Now think about getting another hobby dude! Spend some time reading thew back posts instead of posting your uninformed opinions here...there is a LOT you can learn...correction ...NEED to learn!

TAz and Doc, You have summed up my thoughts, and I fully agree with the both of you.

What I know is only what I have experienced. What I have been through. I have seen the industry problems from the hopeful apprentice's side. As to the Marine Corps, I am not proud of how I left, but I am proud of my time there and what I was able to accomplish and the changes I hope came about. In the end I wanted no part of an organization who individuals are willing to die for it (Including myself), but treats it they way I saw. As to my job. I agree it's a job not a career, but it's a job that pays well that I can't afford to leave and I've already invested 6 years in. I did let my dreams pass me by. That was my mistake and now my wife may be the one who pays. I have tried to listen and learn, but I'm hearing the same things over and over. "They aren't qualified, don't have dedication", I only have seen it from one perspective in one location. "I don't the have the time" If your that busy you need them as much as they need you. It's takes 5 min to judge a drawing. I'm not saying teach them sterilization, tuning their equipment, tattooing technique, etc.. just look at their work tell them what's wrong and then they can go back to practicing. Tell them "If I hear your doing anything out of the house before your ready, I'll report you and will stop helping you." My number one point is, If you don't want the scratchers in their kitchens, take them out of the kitchen. If they refuse force them to stop. The business card thing happened over a year ago. Didn't know any better then, but it got her in shop even after the same shop turned her away because they didn't need an apprentice. Only after the card incident did they ask to see her portfolio. My point about that is it shouldn't have taken that. That type of thing should never have to happen.

One more thing. I'm not trying to encourage amatuer tattooing. I'm just trying hopefully to encourage at least one shop into opening it's doors. I'm still not seeing the problem. What I am seeing is a lot of wannabe's with excuses and just as many owners with just as many excuses. In two years, have seen a good share of prison tats and scratch work that should have never happen that my wife fixed, but I have also seen shody "professional" (Wow! They got paid for this?) type work and "kitchen magic" guys who should've been in shops long before with an aprenticeship, because they do have the skill and drive. TAZ... I respect you and thet you have 35 years in this business and have seen a lot of changes, but I am only trying to make one more. I'm not say take in the other 99%, just at least give them a chance before you shut the door in their faces. I have seen my wife work to the point of passing (no, not during a tattoo) out from lack of sleep trying to make her dream come true. While being my wife and a friend to others I really don't care what anyone thinks of me, but my wife is a different matter. I have never met someone so dedicated to their art. I've stayed at this forum trying to ask why? Why don't you open your doors? But I'm still hearing same "excuses" over and over.... If you were really that concern about public safety then you do somethin about it other than type or talk. But hey the more fucked up tattoos, the more business you get, but I forgot you don't have the time.

One final thing... I don't claim to have 42 or thirty or even 1 year in the biz. I have only seen what my wife has gone through over the last two years... Personally it makes me sick. BTW... My wife has an apointment about getting an apprenticeship next week when the owner gets back from a convention. The shop in question has an open door policy, good artists and is doing very well. The moment she got the opportunity he stopped doing "free" tattoos and they likely got a good artist. Be glad and rejoice. Now there's one less "kitchen magician" out there. I'm done with this and I'm not going to talk about this subject anymore I'm getting a headache beating it against a brick wall.

But that's the thing keaz. When I start to look for my apprenticeship, I plan on having my art undeniable. But that doesn't mean I'm going to stop drawing when I get rejected by the many shops that I know are going to reject me(or that I'm going to go in thinking i'm the shit for that matter). Taz shouldn't have to baby me and be like, "look kid, you need to go work on your art". If he says no, I KNOW I need to keep working on my art. As a matter of fact, even if he said yes, I know that I gotta keep working on my art. It's not the professionals job, duty, or whatever else to make sure that every kid who wants an apprenticeship gets one. I actually think it is better for them to "play tight". It insures that only the dedicated ones will get into the business. And I'm sorry (not really), I don't have any sympathy for anyone's situation making it difficult for them to get in. You either want in or you don't, and if you won't make the sacrifices necessary, well, life is tough. Personally, I don't want to see people getting into the business just so they won't scratch. It's a moral issue with me. Scratching is as good as cheating, hell, I think you could honestly call it attempted murder. I dunno man. It's a fine line, but lets not lower the bar because people don't wanna do it right. Jeremy

Man I am So fuckin sick of your bullshit!... Do youknow my practise as it comes to apprentices?...NO...I give EVERYONE a chance!!....You DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!.....PERIOD!!! NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP....if you 'd LISTEN you would see that we DO give people chances...I don't know what happened to your wife but I'm sure it probably had something to do with YOU!! You have now succeeded in pissing me off man its time for you to shut up!!...Fuckin moron!!

TAZ... I'm sorry I never meant you don't. I know you do give people chances and the benefit of the doubt.

P.S. I'm sorry if I pissed you off... but that's no reason to call me names. I was trying to have a civil discussion about what I have seen and what people in the industry think might have went wrong. You say it might have been me maybe by I only drove and stayed in the car. As I said she found a shop that give "everyone" a chance. I'm glad you do to. I just wish the rest of the industry would. I just trying to put foward a suggestion that might solve the wannbees problem of being constantly turned away and the industry problem of ... apprenticeship is many times better than scratching your way up. I personally do plan on owning a shop... maybe then I'll bring it back up after I've got experience in the industry. Maybe, I'll see the other side and know why it is or people just see it as a closed shop / good ole boys only type atmosphere. I don't know... But that's my problem I don't know and I am trying to find out. Forgive me for trying to learn about something new. Whenever I see good people with problems. I try to help even at my own expense.

Kaez, I'm, probable WE are not saying there is not ANY validity in SOME of what you say, it's how you're going about it and how you can't seem to see beyond your needs/wants. Again, at least part of what you say is undenibly true. I too have seen VERY talented, dedicated and enthusiastic 'amatuers' that I'd have enjoyed teaching this art to if circumstances had allowed it and feel very certain they would have been an asset to a profession I fucking love and has allowed me a life MANY would envy. I've been 'self employed' for over 24 years, met a LOT of great people, made a living doing something I honestly enjoy doing, can go anywhere I want and if I'm recoqnized as 'Doctor John', I'm greated with smiles and handshakes-Yes, Tattooing has been good to me and anyone who knows me knows I've long been trying to be good to it, as I was taught when I first got into this a long time ago. I've seen and been a small part of a lot of neat ass improvements in this Art and have perhaps forgotten things about the 'old ways' that most haven't even heard about, let alone lived through and witnessed it 'up close and personally'. Any of you youngsters ever use an acetate stencil, cut any? I'm a dinasaur, but it's sure come a long way, mostly for the better. Unfortunately, as in most stuff, there's the 'other side of the coin', all the fucking amateurs that are getting their hands on equipment, sold by fuckwads that do NOT respect Tattooing, the so-called tattoo artist who are simply in it for the money and if it were'nt for the Tattoo Artist that changed the way society thinks about Tattoos as well as the people getting them, the vast improvement in the ART being done by these dedicated Tattoo Artist and the work they put into getting that good, well, these asswipes wouldn't have a market, so there probably would therefore, not be any 'kitchen/home magicians' as they wouldn't be as popular. Ever thought about that- I've lived it. So again, I can somewhat understand but again, you're not listening and that's getting a bit tiresome. As to that comment about 'but hey the more fucked up tattoos, the more business you get, but I forgot you don't have the time.', I personally would far rather do an original tattoo not try to make a masterpeice out of someone elses shit, whether it was by someone working out of a shed or a 'fancy' studio, shit is shit, comes out of the same assholes. As to your suggestion that we either help 'em or turn them in to the local authorities. Oh, my nieve young man, do you need a lesson in the history of tattooing. Besides, if only it were that simple, many of 'em don't wanna hear it, they know what their doing and nothing gonna stop 'em-except maybe a bullet, like just coincidently, supposedly happened awhile back to some guy working out of a local flea market tattoo booth. Supposedly got 2-3 bullets into his right arm with a 9mm or 40 cal, guess he's done tattooing huh?...Doc

That last sentance of that first paragraph came out wrong. I meant the industry problem of scratchers. I do believe apprenticing is many times better.

Doc... I'd like to thank you for your last post it's finally making more sense... Maybe the problem wasn't her.. but just crap shops that may not have cared about the industry or art or were only in it for the money (in the case of where she apprenticed a bit). I know a few bad apples spoil the bunch, but it just seems like one too many coincidences to be just a few bad apples... That said, I have a new question? Do you think more shop are good shops or bad shops? (AKA just the money, etc...) P.S. I found out today the owners of her prior apprenticeship no longer live in this town... and were bought out... might tell you something about them.

Kaez, This is not to fuel fire, or be sarcastic, this is meant as a honest suggestion, I know that you only want to help your wife, and man I do respect that, but I can tell you that the Tattoo business is really a small network of people, the good ones know each other, or at least know of each other, with that said, Let your wife do her part and what you need to do is just give her the encouragement, love and understanding, The way I am reading all these post of yours is that your trying to live your life through her, Kind of like the dad who tries to live his life through his son by forcing him to play football, Let her make the mistakes, let her take the glory, and most of all let her stand on her own feet. If she is that goiod (and TAz has given her a great complimet) than she will work it out. I know that you are doing Oil work 60/30 shifts, and I know when I was in that field 20 years ago, I could pretty well live where I chose and they flew me to my Boat (Siesmic) to do my job for the 60 days, If that is still the case then maybe you need to change locations if San Antonio is not allowing your wife to achieve her life's passion, As far as the rest of the comments on the industry, my friend you have no clue, These Pro's that have offered you advice have done so, because they are some of the true Tattoo artist that do love what they do, and they have offered you advice that you do not seem to want to use, (See above comments) Anyway that's my 2 cents for what it's worth. Blacktri

keaz, well, it's about time something got through, hope it's real. As to what ya said about 'a few bad apples', naw, they just TRY to spoil the bunch, they can't spoil ya if ya stay away from them and seperate yourself from them as much as possible. Unfortunately, that too is part of the problem, not all the shops/studios are anywhere near what they should be quality and/or cleanliness, again, part of all the people who want into this profession the 'easy way'. And, as stated before somewhere on this forum, there are 'tattooers' trying to apprentice people when they don't even know what the fuck they're doing. Like most shit, the problem is complex, not easily solved and is not going to solve itself- and is steadily getting worse, which is also something we're trying to get you (and others) to understand. As to whether I think 'more shops are good shops or bad shops', I was going to say 'six of one,half dozen of the rest' but I'd more accurately say I personally think it's more like 3 good to every nine so-so or just bad from what I'm seeing/hearing and it seems to be pretty much everywhere there are people who want a tattoo are. Unfortunately, most of those people don't know shit about what to look for or expect and, equally unfortunately, there are more and more people capitalizing on just that, the more popular tattooing has become, the worse it has become. Tattooos are EVERYWHERE now, on TV, in commercials, in magazines-everywhere, so naturally it will draw the cockroaches out of the woodwork. It happens anytime something gets popular, especially in today's money hungry world. And again, I've got over 40 years of my life in 'this' and the bitch of it is, I can't think of ANY really good, reputable and down to earth TATTOO ARTIST I've ever met or even heard about who ever got into it for the money anyways, not as their 'driving motive' and 'that part' if it comes, usually only comes after years of hard work, doing GOOD and SAFE work and building an excellent reputation as a result. But then ya got the Cory Hart's, right (different story, there). Personally, I'm sick of what I've called the 'tattoo parasites' the people feeding off tattooing, the supply dealers, magazine peddlers who sell ads in the back to anyone, the 'flash peddlers' who put out mass produced shit and sell to anyone, the people jumping into this just as a hooby/money adventure-ALL of it and them. But what ya gonna do, this is America, they call it 'free enterprize' right. Again, it's not a simple problem but it kinda boils down to- do it right or don't fuckin' do it THAT"S why we try to educate people...Doc

Blacktri, Thank you for your post as I, obviously, agree with what you said and, by the way, I too stated his wife seems to have a lot of potential. Again, it's most encouraging when we get support from someone 'outside' the family and/or profession, your '2 cents worth' is worth alot in my book, again, thanks for posting, hope you'll be a 'regular' here...Doc

Thanks all of you.. TAZ, Doc, black and any I forgot. Well I guess it's on to ther topics now. Like that sweet party TAZ is going to be throwing.

P.S. I'm glad are are those in the industry like you guys. At least it shows me there's something worth fighting for. I know I will never be an artist, but I will still try to do my part.