SUPPORT OUR OWN!!!

As much as I detest this war we are in we must support our soldiers! For whatever reason they are laying their lives on the line every day so we remain safe and they are assuring that we continue to have the rights to speak out on a public forum with no consequences...At Painted Angel we offer hefty discounts to any active member of our armed forces as our humble way of saying thanks...I challenge all other tattoo studios to do the same! TAz

"they are laying their lives on the line every day so we remain safe" So I'll take some heat for this, but what the hell I'm feeling pugnacious lately... Are they really? I wonder how many would enlist if they weren't paid.

Careful there Canuck, you're threading on dangerous grounds, although, the enlistment has gone down a LOT since people are beginning to question our war on Iraq. I strongly believe we have a LOT of patriotic, brave people who are willing to put their lives on the line and do not believe it's for the money (which ain't all that anywho) and frankly, if you honestly believe what you said, you don't understand shit about most Americans and/or what we're 'about', dumbass...Doc

How many of us would enlist if we didn't get paid? Well, let me ask you.. would you go to work if you didn't get paid? I highly doubt you would. I would recommend pulling your head out of your ass before making ridiculous assumptions such as that. You need to first realize that what we in the military do is a job. Damn right we should get paid for performing our job. We have a job that is more dangerous than any civilian job out there. Oh, you don't think so? Please allow me to enlighten you. Most of us don't enlist because of the money. The money just isn't that great. In fact, a large percentage of the enlisted in the military actually qualify for low income benefits, welfare, and things of that nature. The actual base pay of the lower enlisted meets the criteria to fall under the national poverty line. We are not millionaires by any means. Furthermore, we get to sit back and watch as civilians who do the same or similar jobs make almost twice what we make. We also deal with the narrowminded who hate us and curse and spit at us, because we defend this country and are following the president's orders. There are millions of people that want nothing more than to kill one of us, because of what we represent. That's something we get to enjoy for free. We leave our families for months, even years at a time in order to go defend all the wonderful things about this country. We can go months without communication to our families and friends because of the nature of our mission. Our brothers and sisters in arms are coming back in body bags every single day. Did they die for the money? Not a fucking chance. They died protecting the right to allow you to say whatever it is that you would like. Which, coincidentally, is not something that we get to take full advantage of. Yet another free side benefit that we enjoy. So if it's not the money, then why enlist? Because there millions of wonderful individuals in this country willing to put their lives on the lines to protect it, and all the people, regardless of their opinions, who reside in it. It's not an easy job by any means, and the ones that enlist are the ones that actually have the balls to do it. Just so people like you can sleep better at night.

Some things do not come in the form of a paycheck. Patriotism is one of them. That goes for any nation no matter what type of grip the government has on it's people.

I knew I'd catch hell for that one, I do note you guys are obviously cutting me some slack. Thank you for that. I do believe that most people enlist "for the right reasons" similar to firemen and police...I doubt many are doing it just for the money/benefits(tuitions, etc.) and I acknowlage the patriotic element...I just don't think many of these enlistees are currently engaged in activities worthy of their patriotism/sacrifice... This is about oil pure and simple. and it is principally the sons and daughters of the disadvantaged that are being used as cannon fodder to obtain control of that oil. Though I do understand the noble nature of their sacrifices, and do support their spirit to serve their country, and I think they, firefighters, cops and maybe even nurses and schoolteachers all deserve hefty discounts for more than tattoos, I fear they are currently being taken advantage of, and in no way are their current activities contributing to anyones freedom to say what we want on this forum. That's where I was basically heading with my post...

I knew I'd catch hell for that one, I do note you guys are obviously cutting me some slack. Thank you for that. I do believe that most people enlist "for the right reasons" similar to firemen and police...I doubt many are doing it just for the money/benefits(tuitions, etc.) and I acknowlage the patriotic element...I just don't think many of these enlistees are currently engaged in activities worthy of their patriotism/sacrifice... This is about oil pure and simple. and it is principally the sons and daughters of the disadvantaged that are being used as cannon fodder to obtain control of that oil. Though I do understand the noble nature of their sacrifices, and do support their spirit to serve their country, and I think they, firefighters, cops and maybe even nurses and schoolteachers all deserve hefty discounts for more than tattoos, I fear they are currently being taken advantage of, and in no way are their current activities contributing to anyones freedom to say what we want on this forum. That's where I was basically heading with my post...

I knew I'd catch hell for that one, I do note you guys are obviously cutting me some slack. Thank you for that. I do believe that most people enlist "for the right reasons" similar to firemen and police...I doubt many are doing it just for the money/benefits(tuitions, etc.) and I acknowlage the patriotic element...I just don't think many of these enlistees are currently engaged in activities worthy of their patriotism/sacrifice... This is about oil pure and simple. and it is principally the sons and daughters of the disadvantaged that are being used as cannon fodder to obtain control of that oil. Though I do understand the noble nature of their sacrifices, and do support their spirit to serve their country, and I think they, firefighters, cops and maybe even nurses and schoolteachers all deserve hefty discounts for more than tattoos, I fear they are currently being taken advantage of, and in no way are their current activities contributing to anyones freedom to say what we want on this forum. That's where I was basically heading with my post...

I knew I'd catch hell for that one, I do note you guys are obviously cutting me some slack. Thank you for that. I do believe that most people enlist "for the right reasons" similar to firemen and police...I doubt many are doing it just for the money/benefits(tuitions, etc.) and I acknowlage the patriotic element...I just don't think many of these enlistees are currently engaged in activities worthy of their patriotism/sacrifice... This is about oil pure and simple. and it is principally the sons and daughters of the disadvantaged that are being used as cannon fodder to obtain control of that oil. Though I do understand the noble nature of their sacrifices, and do support their spirit to serve their country, and I think they, firefighters, cops and maybe even nurses and schoolteachers all deserve hefty discounts for more than tattoos, I fear they are currently being taken advantage of, and in no way are their current activities contributing to anyones freedom to say what we want on this forum. That's where I was basically heading with my post...

Well, there you go. Theval, any imput on the "War" thread from you would be apprciated as well. Bou, get in on it too man. I want some personal perspectives on this because no one is going to figure this shit out on their own. And I haven't seen any how to books either. Hell if we acn run up a 500+ thread consisting of fetiches and rubber balloon animals surely we can hack something out over this. All i am saying people is SPEAK UP!! This shit is getting closer to our door steps everyday and for some it is already there!

theval, good response but I don't think ya noticed where the asshole who made that comment comes from, he's not even from this country, he's from Quebec, ignorant fuckin' canuck asswipe. Still, good post, as usual..Doc

J, I put in a response to the other thread. Doc.. I didn't notice until I posted. But my response stays the same. There are people just like that in the US as well.

well, that didn't take long for the gloves to come off...all while I was composing my clarification! Passion...cool! Good to see there's no stereotyping of people here based upon origin!

I don't care if you are canadian , anerican or fucking eskimo the statement you made sucked....I am extremely disappointed Bou that you of all people

I still don't see how their current missions overseas contribute to our safety over here, any more that poking a hornets nest with a stick would. Further I don't get how their missions overseas assure our continued right to speak out on this public forum with no consequences...call me a naive asshole if you like, I just don't connect those dots.

Well, actually.... our mission overseas DOESN'T contribute to YOUR right to speak on a public forum. You don't live here. Bou, I can't believe that original post came from you.

I checked out the other thread, and I don't see how my point of view is substantively different than any of those that you praise...but because i'm posting from canada it's assholish... That aside, I still can't see how the current missions overseas serve to protect ANYONES ability to express themselves freely on this forum...can't see it.

Oh really?...Well go over THERE and make a comment about the government ....bring a basket for your head!

See... I don't go over THERE...

See... I don't go over THERE...

Goddamn it Caribou, why do you make me do this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!? Well, I forgot to say goodbye to your fellow countryman, Baker, so fuck it!!! I don't imagine that you're going to get much support from him either this one either, but one of the first things I ever posted on this forum was about this very thing, and I guess it's fitting that it be the last. Caribou, I understand where you're coming from on this........................but you're just not getting your point across. Let me begin by posing a few questions to everyone, and even though, in my typical fashion, they may seem crass, I hope you will really think about this......... How would our freedoms in this country, or Canada, differ today if we had not started a war in Iraq? If our soldiers are defending our freedoms here at home by fighting in Iraq, what would be different if they weren't? Would we be paying MORE for gasoline? Would there be less funding for securing our own borders, allowing more suicide attacks on our soil? Would the general mood of this continent be WORSE? Would we not be able to travel about the globe free from fear of retribution simply because we're Americans? Would the enemy defy our technology, and paratroop in, unseen, on their desert gowns, to overtake every abode in the country from Compton to Harlem Despite the number of guns found in our homes, would we all now be in concentration camps, lined up, awaiting the next box car express to the ovens, gas chambers, or steak knives? I believe in an authority higher than that of man, and whether it makes any difference, I also believe that each of us will be held accountable for our deeds.....................does it matter who gave the order, Sam or Satan? I'm not saying that we should just sat here and done nothing; if our resources had been used to secure our own soil, none of this other bullshit would have been necessary!!!!!!! We haven't accomplished a fucking thing with this war, except make the already dismal lives of a people worse, unecessasarily sacrifice the lives of our own soldiers, and indebt our future generations. I don't need free speech in Iraq, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. I need it HERE, which may not be HERE much longer as a result of the events WE stood by, and allowed to be set in motion, because we wanted to do what's popular, be patriotic and supportive, and not dare to go against the grain!!! "'Cause in the end, we'll meet our fate together." Love you guys!! Later. TCE

| | | yeah, what he said...

Tim!...I KNEW ya were still there...I could feel "the FORCE"...LOL!...I agree with everything ya said pretty much...but it relly has nothing to do with supporting our troops....I didn't say support our government and its warlike policies...oh no!! And I don't think we should be ANY where else but her!! This war is stupid however there are a lot of factors that none of us really know or understand...but I do believe that we are sticking our noses in places it just shouldn't be in!! Oil or not ( but its NOT just about oil) We need to take care of the problems HERE and not worry so much about aiding countries who profess to hate us all the while stickin their hands out for more money and aid!...TAz

Well Hello! Hmmmm... what to say...... For those who don't know it, I am a soldier who has been over seas, (and should be there now if i wasnt on a temporary medical catogorey for bustin my arm and getting a steel plate put in) This thread took me back to my swearing in ceremony 10 years ago. We all stood there, hand on the bible (it was an option) and swore our creed. As part of it, The General who swore us in, went to each one of us and asked truthfully why we wanted to enlist. We heard all kinds of responses like, "my father was in" , for the love of our country, I feel it is my duty, I have no idea, the opportunity to travel, the disipline, for the money, don't know what else to do, my parents are making me. Everyone has their own personal reason. And I recalled my response was.... for the money. We get paid quite well. Now before you jump all over me, at the time ... yes i did join for the money. but once you are in, and you experiance comradary first hand, learn what real team work is about... All I am trying to say is, I joined for the money, cause I didnt know any other reason why! NOW, I have 1000's of reasons! I love my job, I love what I do, don't have any regrets! I am in the CANADIAN ARMY, 4 years in the INFANTRY, and 6 years doing what I do now (not going to say what that is on a public forum) . I would have stayed in the infantry, if my knees could have taken anymore! The military (weather Canadian, American, British, German, whatever) is a COMPLETLY different lifestyle. Untill you have lived it, you can NEVER TRULEY understand it 100% (you may be close, but not 100%) Not sure if I really had a point, but thats what I have to say about that! Baker sendz..........

I don't know how much the military is paid in canada Baker but in the USA well....I don't think anyone is joining for the pay scale to put it lightly!!!

Well, After joing the canadaian military, after 4 years of service, you can expect to be making roughly about $52 000 a year (give or take)

I'll chime in here with my two cents. As Baker said, everyone has their own reasons for joining. When I was about to graduate highschool I was ready to follow my cousins lead and join the military too (SAR tech, Search and Rescue was my first choice). Many of us were simply looking for a better life than the ones we had. The army was a good option for that, inspite of the fact that the Canadian Military is woefully underfunded (but that's a whole other thread). In the end I went a different path and it worked out well enough. My point here is that pay is one factor that many people look at but it's more than that. It can be a chance to turn your life into something better than it already is; that's an appealing prospect for a lot of young men who doesn't think that there are a lot of options for their future (like myself at the time). I think this generation has a different take on an unpopular war than the baby boomer generation, like Vietnam. There is no screaming of "baby killers" or blame of the men serving and dying for their nation (American, British or Canadian). For the most part my generation places the blame where it belongs, with those making the decisions to go to war. As a Canadian I was proud that our government took the stand that they would not attack Iraq, even though the US and UK decided they would. It was a decision of a soverign nation based on what our government felt was the will of the people and based on their own intelligence rather than taking the word of other governments with blind faith. That being said I don't think that most Canadians wished any harm or misfortune on our American and British allies serving in Iraq. At least none of the people I know did.

Baker, thanks for your post, it's good to see the Canadian soldiers point of view, although I trust you'll agree it's the point of view of alot of soldiers from a number of countries, particularily (do I dare say it) the 'Christian' ones. Although, while I'll wait for our 'birthday girl, theval, to be more specific, I know it sounds like the Canadian goverment values it's troops more than ours does, as you sure get better pay. But I've always thought miltary pay SHOULD be more, considering the job, particularily in time of war, especially when ya got professional sports players get the kind of money THEY get. But you are indeed correct in what ya said about not truly being able to fully understand unless you been there, seen that,done that and I think I can speak for a lot of vets when I say, most of ya don't even WANT to really KNOW all that but DON'T DIS US/THEM, you'd not be enjoying the freedoms you have if it weren't for those men and women...Doc

Doc, here's a question for ya. My grandpa served in WWII. I have heard story after story about the people he served under, where he has been, the Nuremberg (sp?) trials (That's his favorite since he was chosen out of a jeep line up to drive the commanding general.) and the things he was incharge of, his buddies and the shit they use to stir up, etc. But I have never heard him talk about the metal meeting the meat. You know, the shit that people packed the theatres to see in Saving Private Ryan and We Were Soldiers and then left with nothing but vacant expressions on their faces after the film was over. Is that what you are getting at when you say, "You don't really want to know?" ... Or did I miss your point? Sorry for seeming ignorant.

Squitters, I have to agree that you are right, people do indeed enlist for varying reasons besides patriotism, of course. And, as a Viet Nam vet, I am very glad/relieved to see that unlike 'back then' the men and women following their goverments orders are not being treated and/or thought of that same way. Personally, I think people are finally starting to think for themselves more and I also think the average citizen has come to understand they can't always trust their goverment, perhaps even more so in the US, particularily after the Kennedy assination and a number of more recent revelations about what's really going on in Washington and the world. I respect what you said about you being proud your goverment choosing not to attack Iraq and personally wish ours hadn't but that's sorta a seperate issue, we DID so we have to 'deal with it' But the point/fact is, it wasn't a choice the soldiers made, so again, be pissed at the leaders- no problem,in fact, I'm there myself-but don't take it out on the troops, not now, not when they come home and not ever...Doc

J-werk, damn you're good. Yes, to a major sense, that IS what I meant. Oddly enough, that vacant expression is how most vets can tell if someone has seen 'active duty' in the truest sense. It's not a vacant look on their faces- it's in their eyes and I'll bet any vet whose actually 'been there, etc.' knows exactly what I'm talking about....Doc

Doc, Amazing how the eyes can speak volumes sometimes, isn't it? I know that I will never see "active duty" in its truest sense. That's just a "medical" fact. (At least that's what the Marines told me.) The whole concept of war is, for lack of a better word (and please don't take this the wrong way), fascinating to me. It's not the loss of life, the deafening earth shaken explosions, the screams of pain, the hissing swarms of the bullets, the blood, etc. It's the camaraderie at it's purest form. When the man or woman to the left and to the right of you, even though you have no blood ties to them, become your brother, your sister, and you would gladly lay down your life for them if that ment they made it the hell out of "there." And they are willing to do the same without so much as blinking an eye. It fascinates me that war can bring a nation together united, i.e, WWII. Or it can completely divide it, i.e, Vietnam. And in the past 6 years we have swung from one end of the spectrum to the other. Sept. '02 we, as a nation we stood united under the flag, beside our brothers and sisters. "By God, not in my house!" "Lock and Load!" ... 4 years later, a lot of those same people have taken a different stance, a different view, and are now saying, "What the hell are we doing? What have we done?" I guess that is why I am asking all of these questions, because I don't know, I don't understand, because I'll never see "that look", because I'm not over "there."

J, there's an ancient proverb, 'the eyes are the mirrors of the soul' and I learned a long time ago to watch a person's eyes, be it when talking, fighting, whatever-they 'talk' to ya, if that makes any sense to ya. Frankly, be glad you didn't have to see 'active duty' but I think you have a pretty good insight. As to how this nation has swung so much since Sept. 02, I personally think alot more people see how we were deliberately mislead and took advantage of because of the outrage of 9/11 and/or realizing this is not going to be a 'quick solution' by far, contrary to the original belief of many. Nor do I think most Americans fully understood 'our enemy' this time and that this is going to be a different type of war than we were anticapating with more ramifications than most people were aware of. Frankly I didn't know much about THAT part until I started doing some research, reading as much as I could about it from different viewpoints and even trying to see things from 'their' point of view. It's part of the oldest warrior code, 'ya gotta know your enemy before you can beat him' kinda thing. Another aspect, I think is that this is a different kind of war than we're used to, for one thing, the enemy is not wearing an easily identifiable uniform nor fighting a 'conventional war'. The 'poles' suggest we've come to realize we got into a very tricky situation, to say the least, and again, I don't think most Americans knew what we were getting ourselves into....Doc

No, America didn't know what they were getting themselves into. The Arab nations, and Isreal have been fighting each other since 1948! http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0804479.html No, there are no uniforms. There's no specific northern, southern, eastern, or western terrorist group. These groups are literally everywhere! And the most important thing to realize is that because they have fought for some many years on THEIR home ground, well, there it is. Don't need to repeat that one. This may not be the jungles and forests of Vietmam and Cambodia but there the desert and all that lies within is just as formidable. And guerilla warfare is still guerilla warfare. There is noth conventional about it and there never will be.

Jwerk...(Jason) don't forget tomorrow ...11:00 sharp!...Black and gray seminar!!...I'm buyin lunch!!! Then Tuesday its rehearsal for the show!...You are gonna be the bass player buddy!!! T

I don't know if this will get me some heat or not... It shouldn't. Let's see if I can make all this clear from my point of view. 1. My grandfather was in the D-Day invasion. He fought for my right to grow up free to speak my mind. In my opinion, to blindly support the decisions of our country's leadership under the guise of "Patriotism" is un-patriotic. If you really love this country, it is the duty of every citizen to be informed, and know how the decisions your leadership is making will affect not only our lives, but the future of our country, and it's standing in the world. That said... 2. There is a big difference between the American Soldier, and the American leadership. Though I have absofuckinglutely NO idea what motivates this current President, and I couldn't for 2 seconds be more disgusted with the guy, his administration, most of his policies, etc., I thank god for every US Soldier that is fighting anywere for my right to be free, safe, and live the way I do. My father was an Air Force Officer. When I was about 23, I took my College Degree, my Black Belts and experience and went down to sign myself up for the US Air Force, Officer Training School, etc. Unfortunately, due to a condition with my eyes, they would not take me. Wasn't to be. Sometimes I feel like I was robbed of a chance to serve. I would have if I could, but life took another direction, so all I can do is thank the people who do with everything I have. But people, don't think for 2 seconds that the US as an administration is the altruistic country above reproach. The US government makes decisions everyday that are at best questionable, and at worst, just rediculous.... and then also, we do some really fine things for the world. Like any Human Being, this country has it's good moments, and it's bad ones. To get on the boat of Blind patriotism does nobody any good. If you can't understand why the North Koreans, hate us, you can't really be of much consequence when it comes to changing it. That said... I still believe this is the greatest country in the world , and the minute the enemy hits our continental shores I'll be there in any capacity possible because I love this country, and all of us who live here. And, as bad as I detest our current leadership, I would no more burn an American Flag than cut my own head off because that type of disrespect for every Vet of this Country who has ever fought in any war to keep this country safe is just unthinkable. I could never look into the eyes of one of those old guys with the name of his warship on his hat and ever say anything but "Thank You, from me, and my girls... Thank you, in spades. So to all our Soldiers in any branch I say, our hearts are with you. Always. And to all vets of all past wars... ESPECIALLY VIETNAM, and all but forgotten KOREA, I say, I have no words to express my gratitude.

Al, good post, as usual and very accurate. You simply MUST check out the vid Taz spoke of, it's a little long but worth it...Doc

In Jamaica we have a saying: "Cockroach don't business in a fowl fight". Fowl means "chicken"... i hope you get the picture. Anyway, this little Jamaican roach would like to put in a word or two (beaks down, please). We've got to separate Government from People; as TAz says: whatever we think of the war, it's men and women out there in danger. I've said elsewhere how unfair it is when American people take flak for what a few Americans (George, Dick, Condi etc.) do. Like many nonamericans, I too used to hate "Amurka" for international arrogance, financial unfairness, and all the wickedness and skullduggery that so many Americans despise. But my views changed when i (grew up and) realized that there are many wonderful, beautiful Americans who know both the good and bad of their country. There are a lot of shits too, but i don't correspond with them. The question for us isn't: what's the point of the war, but how do we deal with the fellow-humans who are involved in it? And guys, not only your own. Give a thought for the widowed iraqi, the child with no legs, and the young man who - like your GI's - is just trying to follow orders. It's a profoundly fucked-up scene, it hurts everybody, and other than pray and mourn, i don't know what else little me can do. One of the reasons for holding on to belief in a just God is the hope that such persons as Osama, George and Saddam will have to pay for the trouble they've caused. Maybe they'll get reincarnated as cockroaches, and get caught in a fowl fight.