VERY IMPORTANT OUR RIGHTS ARE IN DANGER!!!!

President Bush is trying to force through 20 right-wing judicial nominees. But this fight is also about something much bigger: whether the rest of America will have any say at all over who ends up on the Supreme Court. Republican leaders are trying to use a parliamentary trick so extreme it's called the "nuclear option" to end one of our most basic democratic traditions—the requirement that lifetime judicial nominees have broad support in Congress. The result: justices far outside the mainstream, who will favor corporations over citizens' rights and could undo generations of progress. We have a plan to stop them: MoveOn members will team up in every town in America to spread the word about the Republican leadership's stealth attack on the judiciary and demand our senators stop it. But we may only have a few weeks to turn the tide. Will you come to a party on Thursday where people in your city can work on a plan to save our courts? If you don't see a party near you, host your own. It's easy, fun, and we'll show you how. Click here: Of course, this is only one of many areas in which Republican leaders in Congress and the White House are trying to use deception and scare tactics to force through a sweeping right-wing agenda. So beyond judges, we'll ask your team to spread the word about other critical issues like Social Security privatization and the war in Iraq. And at the party, we'll lay out our plan to use our neighborhood organizing to build a foundation for electing progressives to Congress. It's a bold agenda to turn the tide and begin building a more progressive America, town by town and block by block. And it begins with you. We hope to see you on Thursday.

This is hogwash. Why are you so worried about having judges that believe in your politics? Their job is to make decisions based on our constitution and existing law, not create policy. It sounds to me that you are afraid of getting new judges that will do just that. And if so, it shows that the left has no real power to make change any place else. My rights will only be in danger if the left continues blocking the progress of this great country!

Extreme right wing judges are not good for this country(just as extreme neo-con public officials are not good). We dont want any extreme judges. The neo-cons are trying to fill the slots with judges that are obviously right wing. The right is making the top 1% richer off the backs of the working class. Just follow the numbers. Who got richer, and who is having a harder time paying their bills? Neo-Con's are NOT making our country greater, they are making themselves and their friends richer at the expense of the working class, and indeed the entire country. Its funny you say the left will stop progress, cause we are the "progressive" movement. We want a stronger country and that means a stronger population, not a stronger upper crust. We dont like to have the world pitted against us because of radicle right wing politicians and ill planned unjust wars. Abusing the trust and sacrifice of our noble servicemen is an absolute disgrace to this country. I encourage everyone to take a peek at moveon.org. They are a massive group of people who are looking out for the majority of the population. Reject blantant greed and corperate interests, and take control of your own country. Here is another thread where some very talented tattoo artists tackle their feelings on politics and of course, if you are a tattoo artist from the left, right, or middle, check out the art show we are running at ItsYourLand.com. I'd love to hear more about how the left is "stopping progress". As well as your main sources of news...

Appreciated your viewpoint, but before we start comparing sources - what has the "progressive party" been successful at?

Appreciated your viewpoint, but before we start comparing sources - what has the "progressive party" been successful at?

Ok, we're flinging around terms as if they all have the same vague meaning. Here is a paragraph about progressive, er I mean the lefts, oopse, liberals acomplishments. "Liberalism is responsible for the founding principles of our society, such as freedom of religion and freedom of speech. The Protestant Revolution (led by men like Martin Luther), and later the American Revolution (with leaders such as Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Thomas Paine), were the result of liberalism. Similarly, the political left can take credit for other important achievements in our society. The Civil Rights Movement, pushed by leaders such as Martin Luther King, Jr,. is a perfect example of the left in action. The left has also been responsible for such landmarks as the growth of women's rights (such as women's right to vote), the rise of labor unions, and the creation of Social Security and Medicare." - William L. Pfeifer, Jr. from his article The Language of Liberalism and The Left. Now, that opens a lot of room for discussing the difference between acomplishments and goals, who has the power, and where its getting exerted. I want to make it clear that Im registered as an independent, and judge each and every representitive based on their actions, and wether those actions will benifit the majority of society, or a select group already in power. I believe everyone has the right to their own opinion, but not facts.

Oh, and I knew you tricked me. You said the left stops progress, I asked you to defend that statement, and then you asked me to first defend the reverse first. Now, its your turn, Id love to know what your definition of progress is and how you think the left is stopping it. What are your goals for your society?

anybody that has a problem with what you're saying voted for bush, and anybody that would do that obviously doesn't know what they're talking about anyway so i'd like to find a meeting. He's already taken away my Social security now that he is on his last term, he's on the war path. i agree with you and i wish somebody would do something.

Wishing someone would do something will get you nowhere. Remember, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. dont wish someone else would do something, go do something!

KEEP ME POSTED BECAUSE I DID NOT VOTE FOR BUSH AND THIS ANTI AMERICAN PRESIDENT IS NOT GOING TO TAKE MY RIGHTS AWAY LIKE HE TOOK MY SOCIAL SECURITY AND DECLARE WAR ON A NATION THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 911 AND HAVES THE GAS PRICES SO HIGH THAT YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE OR FOOD FOR YOUR KIDS OR GAS FOR YOUR CAR AND IF YOU DON'T PUT GAS IN YOUR CAR HOW ARE YOU GOING TO WORK TO FEED YOUR KIDS BUSH MUST BE STOPED AND I AM DOWN WITH IT TOO. I JUST HOPE HE DON'T END AMERICA ECONOMY WITH THIS WAR SINCE WE ARE SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY FIXING A COUNTRY THAT FUCK OURS UP.

we're not spending money fixing a country that fucked us up. No country fucked us up. You must mean the " war on terra". And hey, you think your embarrased,as an American? I'm from his home state. All I see are stupid "W" stickers everywhere. We've had to endure his term as Governor ( and still are in a way,with Rick Perry- this is another slime bag who will run for president one day I bet.), and he was part owner of the Texas Rangers. He's a fortunate son (and a "C" student)... and he's fooled conservative christians and middle america into supporting him by waving his "faith" around and convincing them that the fabric of american christian values are under attack. Fear tactics. It's sick.

I feel for you that you had to have Bush as your governor in Texas I know what you mean I have his other brother here in FLorida and my governor the only good thing is if his little brother cries to him for money and help we will get it faster but hey he helped rigged his brother's votes to become president. We supposevely lost more than 7,000 votes of democrats and we just found out that some repulicans that have been dead for more than 10 years voted in this elections those must be some hardcore republicans shit. I swear I have a son in the arm forces and I hope he don't die for something that is not our problem we need Money to help our kids here better schools more treatment for the ill. I am a veteran and I love my country and I am willing to die to protect the lifes of all the Americans but let it be for justice for all peace in our nation and so we can live like we want in harmony. Good luck in your State.

Chino, While I am certainly no fan of Jeb Bush for his lack of action on certain issues, the facts are that it was Democrats trying to rig bogus votes in Florida, while at the same time trying to throw out the military votes from off shore. That's whole irony of the 2000 elections. The general liberal thinks they were shafted, but the facts clearly show Gore's lawyer's simply failed at their own attempt to do the shafting. Again, I have my own problems with both sides of the political fence, but when I see blatant lies for either side being pronounced as the gospel truth, I get sick to my stomach and have to speak out against it. Dems are far from being any better from republicans, and from my own observations are actually more prone to hypocrisy and bullshit. This is why conservatives have been gaining power. Instead of providing a viable and logical counter-plan, all I hear from dems is mantra-crap like "war for oil" and "Bush stole election". The end result is it pisses off the very people they are trying to swing the votes from, hence, political suicide and loss of seats. This is the problem of the two-party system. We need a solid "constitutionalist" party that seeks to preserve the will of the constitution from the dangers of judicial legislation, which something liberal judges have been getting away with for decades. Now when this power is threatened by the other side, suddenly you see sites like moveon.org creating mass cut-and-paste panic posts on various sites. Sorry, I have no sympathy for them.

Hey man, glad to see you troll the boards! Tell Jeff I say hello next time you see him. I will meet him in person later this month at the Boston convention...

In any event, before we get too far, lets get our definitions out there. that way everyone is on the same page.

What is a Liberal? Are you registered in a political party? How would you define your core values.

I think I might be liberal (at least I believe in a strong population(defined by percent. I want say 80% of the population to be as strong as possible) and as much personal freedom as possible). Definitions of labels get confused and redefined often, so Im not sure I am in your eyes. Progressive is another word. Left maybe, though Im not sure of that definition really. Certainly I dont identify with folks who want to impede on my personal freedom, take opportunities away from me and my family, or make them less safe. Because of this I often find myself grouped with liberals and lefties. If i am indeed, then Im proud to be. If Im not, then Im proud to be whatever I am.

I am not registered with any political party. I dont trust politicians, and I think our founding fathers made the different branches of government with the intention of keeping the leadership of the country out of any 1 political parties hands because they knew firsthand what happens when all the "power" goes to a few and those few isolate tehmselves from the bottom (they just revolted, after all). Sometimes politicians vote or do something productive that I agree in, but few politicians have always voted the way I would. Therefore I cant really register with any party. I have voted democratic recently because while far from perfect, they tend to balance the budget better and start less wars(to which I believe the Congress is supposed to approve with a vote, no? These wars that arnt actually declared dont seem right to me, if you are for the war, then why pussy foot around, just declare it with Congress's approval). The dems still listen to the corporations too much, and play by the "Beltway" rules. In any event, I believe people should take charge cause we are the government, and we aint got no one to blame but ourselves if we see our community going in the wrong direction.

Ok, the issues at hand.

"While I am certainly no fan of Jeb Bush for his lack of action on certain issues, the facts are that it was Democrats trying to rig bogus votes in Florida, while at the same time trying to throw out the military votes from off shore. That's whole irony of the 2000 elections. The general liberal thinks they were shafted, but the facts clearly show Gore's lawyer's simply failed at their own attempt to do the shafting. "

The 2000 election was deceided by the Supreme Court when they stopped the recount. It was a very close election, and at the end of the day the Reps pack a much dirtier punch than the dems. 2000 Election summery. Look at the numbers, very very close. Barely a win. Barely. Phew, looks like it should have been recounted to me. I guess if theres not enough time to make sure the presidential election count is fair count then the courts should just deceide. At least the voting/cheating problems got ummm errrr fixed....? I wonder why?

I dont know about the "general liberal" but I think that there might have been a few cases were democrats were trying to stop votes. I'll be the first to admit that cheating by any side is wrong. There is also no doubt that Karl Rove, Bush, and the rest of the proud Neocons have both more experience and history using dirty tricks and rigging systems than the Gore's crew. The republicans and their defenders gloat about how wimpy the democrats are. I agree. If the democrats were a stronger party then the cheating wouldnt have made a difference, you cant cheat if its a knockout. Though, these non-traceable completely insecure voting machines owned by republican backers seems to be making the point moot. The cheating really is amazing. And we take it. It takes quality stand up people to do the right thing EVERY SINGLE TIME. Look where this game has gotten us, knee deep in oil war lies. We should be innovating our way OUT of the middle east.

You cant have it both ways, though. You admit the Dems are wimps and then say they are capable of effective ballsy cheating. Ha. they should be so lucky. The neocons are *experts*, just look at their record. But I, of course, condemn all cheating.

The republicians have a fantastic machine that works all the angles of manipulating the public(education, media, marketplace, etc). Its amazing to watch, its even more amazing to realize its the same story throughout history. Then it makes perfect sense. What a fantastic ride.

"Again, I have my own problems with both sides of the political fence, but when I see blatant lies for either side being pronounced as the gospel truth, I get sick to my stomach and have to speak out against it."

I agree! Do you really think the democrats did *more* cheating in Florida than the Republicans? I think Karl Rove is proud about his boldness, and kicked the democrats ass. The fact that the democrats tried a little cheating (while is also unacceptable) doesnt negate what the republicians did.

"Dems are far from being any better from republicans, and from my own observations are actually more prone to hypocrisy and bullshit."

And the republicans are more prone to filtering the money away from the middle and lower class (just follow the money) and engaging in wars we arnt winning while somehow keeping the myths and rhetoric about how we need to be there alive. And I dont know how much more hyprocitical you can get than this administration. Even the names to all their policies are completely hypocritical.

I agree that Dems are *far* from better. Sometimes I think the Dems are worse because they dont have the spine to truly stand up for the people in the face of such a transparently corrupt alternative.

At the end of the day, follow the money. Modern Republicans change the flow of money to the top, and Democrats open the spick-et (a little) to the middle and lower class and just as importantly they balance the budget. The last two Republican Administrations couldn't balance a budget to save their life (at the expence of others lives) (go figure, look at the businessmen friends they keep), They dont have too, though, the moneys getting passed up and then back and forth and the middle class suffers. (Again, its the same story again and again).

"This is why conservatives have been gaining power. Instead of providing a viable and logical counter-plan, all I hear from dems is mantra-crap like "war for oil" and "Bush stole election". "

Wrong, you arnt listening (or you are just listening to the right). The democrats (and liberals) have *plenty* of workable solutions to the problems (the republicans are ignoring or encouraging). They are pretty clear solutions. First up educate the public so we can regain our place as the strongest and smartest and freest country in the world. fuck this No child left behind bullshit. We are owe it to the population to implement a REAL solution to the education problem. There are plans to make a marketplace that is favorable to the countries working class not the top 1%(like stopiong tax cuts to companies that ship jobs overseas), an energy plan that is sustainable and safe for our environment, etc, etc.

Also, we *do* hear the "Rights" solution to the problem. Stay the course. We hear it loud and clear, over and over and over. Its simple people programming. Stay the Course. We have to be right, otherwise all those lives were in vain. Stay the course, We cant give up. Stay the course, Iraq needs to stand up for itself. Stay the Course, Stay the Course Stay the Course. And keep buying shit.

You know, us liberals dont whine all day(sipping capo-chino) and blame our problems over the last 5 years on bush, though, Rush and FOX repeats that bullshit every day. I have had a great life over the last 5 years. Indeed, the more I get ahead and understand about the rules of the game and how they are being manipulated I get pissed. Power is, once again, congealing at the top and the top is isolating itself from the middle and bottom.

Our country is too good to be behaving the way we are. We should be stronger. For America to be in the strongest position the rest of the world should be looking up to us, not looking the other way or defending itself against us.

"The end result is it pisses off the very people they are trying to swing the votes from, hence, political suicide and loss of seats."

the biggest thing that pisses off the swing voters who dont have the time to do their research is a smear media. If you just listen to Rush and Fox all day long (or even just occasionally as your news source/opinion forming) you would be pissed off at the left. the problem is the Rush/Fox 1-2 combo punch has a fantastic method of spinning reality. You can tell just by their tag lines, "The spin stops here". Ha. In any event, most people dont know better or care to go farther than the entertainment they are used to for news. that is, its not the left that isolates itself from swing voters, its the right wing media that lies and distorts the left that isolates them.

Until we educate the public about how to take power into their own capable hands and truely inform themselves with an inherent distrust of politicians (as our founding fathers had) we're going to have a ignorant uninformed public. And we need to get into their homes (there are very few ways for independent art and media to get into peoples homes) or people will keep being swayed by the TV which is dominated by the top.

Our only hope, and it seems like it is happening, is that the common people can only be fooled for so long when they realize that they are getting the shit end of the stick (even though they got a "tax cut" that barely helps and that these republicians got us into a war without thinking about it enough, and now its gonna be real hard to get out). Democrats are the number 2 party so we will end up getting them again (sooner or later). Things will get a little better, but without real change and real politicians who really stand up EVERY TIME, we wont really insure the money flows to the majority. My hope is that once is starts moving away from the insaneness that exists now we can keep pushing it into a productive direction and at least get our kids some real education. If we can make sure a few generations of the bottom and middle are as smart as they can be, then we will have built a great foundation for real positive change for the population.

"This is the problem of the two-party system. We need a solid "constitutionalist" party that seeks to preserve the will of the constitution from the dangers of judicial legislation, which something liberal judges have been getting away with for decades."

The "liberal court" and 2 party problem is a red herring. Its the only branch that the right wing doest control, that doenst make it liberal. It does make it their last target . What I see is the religious right attacking the judges that protect our freedom all out to bring us into jesus fucking christ land. (I believe in all of Jesus' primary teachings, and certainly the big 1 is undeniable (love), but I do NOT want my government ruled by people who dont openly encourageall spectrums of religious thought).

I think there have been quite a few(the majority) decisions that favor large corporations and the top 1% over the people rights. I think they need to work on protecting personal property rights and the rights of the population more than those of the elite.

The problem with the system (two party or not) is the people participating in it. When the politicians answer to the corporations and the population is too stupid and complacent and trusting to see it, the top 1% will take more and more and more and more. Stay the course, dont look at the money, every-things really the same as before, it'll work out in the end, it has too, we're the good guys, remember?

The solution (no matter what the problem) is to educate our youth and help them keep(indeed foster) their creativity. The primary job of the government (much like the primary job of a parent) is to insure the entire population have everything at their disposal to achieve their fullest potential(or it should be). In the end, its the way to a stronger country.

"Now when this power is threatened by the other side, suddenly you see sites like moveon.org creating mass cut-and-paste panic posts on various sites. Sorry, I have no sympathy for them."

I dont think anyone is asking for your sympathy for MoveON.org (and if they are they shouldnt be). I do find that the goals of MoveOn to advance the working class more than most other groups.

Anyways, I dont think that any particular power move created mass cut-and-paste posts on various website s(form the left or right). They come about because they are tools of communication. Ways we can all talk and push in the same direction as one. There's nothing wrong with mass posts (like theres nothing inherently wrong with TV), but there may be something wrong with whats in them.

As far as using copy-paste tactics, if anything MoveOn is taking a lesson from the far right! Hell, every political organization does the exact same thing... do you know of any that dont? You know, the whole Janet Jackson "clothing malfunction" was like 2 versions of a letter propagated by the right wing christian nuts. The network that the "right" has to blanket us with their talking points is amazing (thats one reason why the right is so strong,). You can't on one hand say that moveon.org is bad for using these tactics but its ok for the right. And again, at the end of the day, this is a tactic. Its all about the people behind the tactic and their goals.

I read a lot of the copy-paste letters: the Family Research council newsletter everyday, and the moveon (I read the Family one more I admit). I watch FOX News often, though it gets boring, their "distraction stories" often take up large chucks of time. I prefer the "Right Wing Programming" segments. I listen to Air America Radio, it makes me laugh a *lot* more.

Im not registered anything, Im an independent and call people out on their actions, not labels. Labels are an easy way for people to frame an argument, the fact of the matter is labels change as language does, and "forces" will relabel words and change their meaning. I believe people should think for themselves, hold people (not labels) accountable for their actions, and the government has a duty to educate its population to the achieve its fullest potential.

Well, there you go. Im not sure how much debate I can join into, I already promised my wife I wouldnt go off on the reality TV thread and what I really think of the TV... ack! Loads of work to do, but Id love to hear other peoples thoughts! And I guess if I spout off ofr this long we deserve a fun debate!

gabe

Gabe, we all know how smart you are - but get back to work!!!! I keep telling people we have so much work to do, that's why we don't return phone calls and get their orders out! Chief of Operations of TattooNOW Maggie Clawson

Gabe, we all know how smart you are - but get back to work!!!! I keep telling people we have so much work to do, that's why we don't return phone calls and get their orders out! Chief of Operations of TattooNOW Maggie Clawson

Cant I have a lunch break??? I mean, I was told the democrats cheat more than republicians, that the republicians have better plans to solve the nations problems, that I am a hypocrite, all I do is whine and bush bash, and the court system is that is really "liberal"(depsite a recent record of protecting big businessmen over the working class) needs to be in the hands of the right wing too! Like my friend firebrandx, I too cant keep my mouth shut when I hear lies and distortions. Ok, back to work for me. and hey, You should be filling the orders and calling people back instead of baiting me into more political dialog! :-)

ok wtf does this have to do with tattooing???? Man chill out and take a happy smoke.

Ummm, not for nothing, the right wingers want nothing more than for you(and me) to get stoned all day and chill out and ignore what they are doing(and lead you to believe that you cant change anything). Given the state of the country, there are few things more important than issues like these. It tyook me 24-5 years to realize this. Fact of the matter is we all have to fight everyday to get whats ours, otherwise the powerful will keep taking it. So, Ill chill and stop talking about the importance of how our great country is governed when Rush and Fox and others who spin the truth to deceive the masses have the *smallest* market share and the money flows to the majority of the population, not to the top 1%. My advice to you is please dont smoke and chill so much you end up in a George Orwell novel. Smoke away and read George and Ray Bradbury and Philip K Dick. Its fun(in a paranoid kinda way), and when you learn how the patterns of mass control work you will recognize them in reality. Sure it may scare the shit out of you when you realize whats going you betcha, but at least you have the ammunition to fight it. Once the working class takes the country back, then we can chill.

Dianna you say what this got to do with tattooing well you mayh not see a direct conection but if we let or goverment ge away with this the way they are planning to do or want to do what will be next our freedom of speach or our freedom of expresion look how hard was for MA tottoo get a stupid law about tattoo artist not being able to work on that State and alot of us from all over the State me being one of the got together to fight this outdate law and let us do tattoo in that State now a lot of my brothers and friends in this industry working there and if they didn't speak up and let the goverment dictate our life's the way they are trying to do then why should we call our self a democratic country I know that this has nothing to do with the topic in discusion but yesthurday was that today is this what else will it be in the future we must get together and back up all those that want the best for us and not just hope someone will do something because if we all sit down and chill and smoke, our life will be up in smoke and what happens to smoke when the wind blows it Dianna it goes away like our rights if we just sit ands chill like you say. I am shocked that you will feel like this I just hope this was a tasteless joke for your sake and for all the dreams of a free country that your kids will enjoy in our future. Take care and turn that smoke off and spresd the word out about what is happening because there are a lot of people out there that the smoke are not letting them see their nose in front of their face. Like you. Have a nice day.

Your full of shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ummm, myway, can you be more presise in your answer? Who is full of shit? Why? Back up your statement otherwise its useless jabber...