you will all go to hell

One is a "tribal" band on my left arm, though it doesn't fully circle the whole upper-arm. The other is on my right shoulder, the letters "MSC" in cursive writing signifying the names of my best friend, his wife, and their little daughter. Even though I love my friend and his family, I deeply regret getting their initials tattooed onto my body. Moreover, I seriously and gravely regret with all my heart getting my other tattoo (the tribal band on my left arm). Being a few years older now (29 and married) there is not a day that goes by that I don't regret getting these tattoos. When I dress, I'm forced to see them in the mirror. When I shower I'm forced to see them. What makes matters worse, is that I knew all along that it is was wrong. I justified it with a back-slidden mind by thinking such things as "God only considers the heart and mind", "physical sins don't compare to spiritual sins", and so on, and so on. With my depraved and back-slidden mind, I justified an abomination to God Himself, who instructs us through His divine law not to print any marks on our bodies (Leviticus 19:28). If this is the law that will be used to rightly judge the world, how much more should we as Christians observe and uphold it? The woman doing my first tattoo (the tribal band) had to stop several times for mysterious reasons. She was visibly shaken and could not concentrate. She kept saying, "man, I need a break." Though It wasn't for my sake, I hid the pain very well and tuned it out for the most part--but this woman could not wait to get me out of that chair. She claimed that she drank quite a bit the night before (I was getting the tattoo on a saturday afternoon), and this seemed to be the most logical reason that she was having such a tough time. I can't help but wonder, however, if there was more to it. Even then my diminished discernment was working, and I sensed a spiritual conflict taking place. When the woman had finished, she made a disturbing remark that will foever echo in mind, "there ya go, you're no longer a virgin." Of course, she spoke not of physical sexuality, but of spiritual defilement against God in the form of marking my flesh. Now I was "one of the gang", one of the "cool people", and one of the rebels who shakes their fist at the law of God. I'm still troubled, even knowing that I'm forgiven. My only hope is for the glorification of the body, when the Lord shall raise us uncorruptable. My tattoos stand as constant reminders of my past depravity when I forsook truly walking with God, and only rendered Him lip-service. They will continue to be my marks of shame for the rest of the time appointed. Thank you for your article. Hopefully this message will get out and all the right people will hear it, and save them from the fate of my shame and regret. It would bring great solace to know that another person would read your article and avert my mistakes--which I would take back in a second if only I had the chance. Through my own research, I've drawn all the same conclusions you have concerning tattooing, body modification, and other self-destructive practices. May the Lord bless you and grant you peace and understanding,

Thanks for your post! Although I don't agree with your beliefs I DO believe in your right to hold those beliefs and the right to share them...I hope you find the peace you are looking for and I am sorry your view on skin art is so naegative...TAz, Painted Angel Studios

Lasers work too.

I also respect your beliefs and believe everyone has a right to express their beliefs. If you hate your tattoos so much though you should get them removed. You will feel better about your self and your religious beliefs. I am not a religious person, but I do belief there is a higher being. If thie "God" can't love me with tattoos on my body and won't let me in "Heaven" then I welcome "Hell". I am sure I will meet several people I know down there. At least I will be with people who can understand me and respect me then people who look down on me. My grandfather is a minister so I know there are many who look down on me just because of my tattoos without getting to know me. Hummm.....I seem to be very vocal tonight.

I'd be lonely as hell in heaven hangin' with all of those church ladies...I belong in hell with my friends and the interesting people! Sounds like, on the other hand, heaven will be a great improvement for you compared to the hell on earth you've created for yourself...you must be looking forward to it...kind of sad actually...To each his/her own...I guess there are no tattoo artists in heaven and these folks are delusional... http://www.xtat.org Thanks for the heads up there sparky!

And Callie there is nothing wrong with being vocal. We welcome it and only encourage you to please continue if you feel that you can contribute in any respect whether it is in agreement or disagreement. The more voices the better this forum will continue to become!....J

If you don't like your ink I welcome you to get them lasered off. As far as the idea of defiling the temple by tattooing one's self... What a load of shit. A tattoo is only meant to decorate the otherwise dull lacluster of the basic human form. Is it defiling a church to put up staind glass or a painting on the ceiling. No of course it's not. It's meant to glorify that which one respects. The reason the people who wrote the bible took it upon themselves to hate others is they were of the beliefe that thier culture and traditions were the only ones that mattered. Thus you have the blasphemy that the jews are god's chosen people. No all knowing superhuman being could ever judge based on race nor would they judge negatively on the things that bring happiness to the ones it created. Read the bible with the knowledge that it was written by a people who was beaten and mistreated by an oppressive culture, and only had one outlet for thier rage and fear. IE the bible. Which may I also add was not made into one book untill hundreds of years after the original chapters (books) were published. Which were then sorted through by a group who wanted to controll the minds/believes of it's followers.

Hey Callie...I don't think I have ever sen you on here before...WELCOME!!! I hope to hear from you again and often!!..TAz

And so then was created the Westboro Baptists... There's a shiny definition of God's unbridaled love for all of His children.

I truely hope this is just a troll out to start some shite, but was severly disappointed when levelheaded people responded in an overall kind manner. If this IS someone who is upset about their descions in life, and we are the wall for them to scream at so be it. I feel sorry they had such bad experiences, and now this causes them to condem the world around them and use religion to justify their reactions. My view is don't get laser treatment- keep them there as your personal cross to bear. Let them remind you that you were once proud of your body instead of seeing it as a burden. Let them remind you of a day when you were happy and that you were able to form your own decisons and interact with your society. Then again what do I know, I believe in evolution, that the Earth is more than 5,000 years old and that the devil didn't put dinosaur bones there to test the faith of man...

Taz, I have been lurking on here for awhile. I have posted a couple times, but not in the last month or more. I guess tonight I'm just feeling more passionate about things and want to express my opinion. Or maybe my Zoloft finally started working! LOL I plan on being more vocal though.

Good point sassmouth...by the by, where the hell have ya been? Haven't heard anything from you since "sassmouth of DOOM!" on 6-6-06.

Yea, I've been traveling [visiting family, going to weddings, vacation all that sorta thing for the month of july] with minimal internet access. But oh so glad to be back, can't believe how much I've been missing!

You have no clue my friend, NOOOOOO clue. But it is good to have ya back... Nice to have another common sense voice back in the group.

[email removed] first off i think you are full of shit you say i'm gonna go to hell for having tattoos BUT, all these priest can go out and fuck lil boys, and you look the other way. catholics can drink all the goddamn time and go to heaven. what the fuck gives. MY god loves me and my tattoos. Your god sounds like an asshole.

Dissapointing. I don't walk your path, but understand your right and need to walk it. Judge not lest ye be judged. You antagonistic types really bother me to my marrow. You will go to church every weeek, sometimes several times a week, and you will bask in your version of God's love, and your clergy will tell you that s/he is everywhere, that his/her love is all around you and to spread that around to your fellow man. But as you are leaving the parking lot, you will cut off the next person in line on the road, will float around as if you are the chosen ones with the allowance to look down your nose at all of the heathens that don't walk the same road as you. Newsflash sweetheart, the way to bring other people around to your line of thinking is NOT to treat them like the scum on your shoes, or tell them that they will Rot in Hell for eternity.

If the chosen title of the thread had been: "You all might just end up in hell"...then I might not have dismissed it as an obvious troll... But with a title like that, you lost all credibility right off the bat!

See you there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just have to wonder if it's more about the regret of your tat choices? Of course I'm not into tribal. Still, how dare you say, "I'm going to hell". I do not respect your opinion on tats based on your "title" choice for your post. I hate shit talk like that from any person. Of course, I'm a Catholic girl and we're sassy! I should send my mama over to bust a move on you for saying her baby girl (moi) is going to hell!

hey ink-junkie, since when is drinking a sin? NOT all Catholics screw little boys nor condone it either, but ry not to confuse Born Agains with Catholics either. Now someone get me a glass of merlot.

i was just making a point to the douchebag that made this post Catholic priest can fuck lil boys and they don't think it's a sin. but having tattoos is. fuck them. drinking isn't a sin, to me, neither is smoking a lil pot. i'm not really to hip on Catholics those fuckers sin more than all of us. and look down on everyone, and thier priest fuck lil boys. MY god loves me and my tattoos a god that dosen't is a cocksucker.

well............my family is catholic and we don't screw little boys or look down on people. I think your are painting a broad stroke lumping all together.It's like syaing all peole who speak with foul language are morons.

well moma cat you're getting worked up over nothing. i was just proving a point that churches look down on everyday shit but it's OK for priest to fuck lil boys in the churches eyes. and yes your families PRIEST probally dose fuck lil' boys. myself i say fuck religon. the fucking bible has been translated so many times you know it's all fucked up. and what religon is right, they all pick and choosed what they want to be right from the bible. i belive in god but i say fuck that bible. and i say fuck going to a church and having a bunch of assholes look down on me for the way i look, when the asshole in charge fucks lil boys, and the rest of those bastards sin the same as me and try to act like i'm white trash and they are not. become a buddist, and say fuck everyone else.

I'm pretty sure that if I'm going to hell, it's for a bunch of stuff way worse than marking up my body. I'd also like to think that a loving God wouldn't send me to the same place as serial killers, rapists, and lawyers for getting a tattoo.

Come on junk ol pal...you are being just as judgemental as "they" are being man....not all priests molest kids...I am catholic and while our two priests were alcoholics they were good men and spent their lives helping people...I am no longer a catholic...the church ( as almost all churchs are) is a money hungry monster....but don't kid yourself... there are far more good priests than bad....you just hear about the bad ones...bad things make good news....Ya just cannot lump people into a basket like that because then you become what you hate...a bigot....and I know you are not...just think about it man...thats all I'm askin!!!...TAz

taz LOL i am comming across like an asshole bigot. my only piont was that alot of church going people do thing far worse than getting ink. i know all priest don't fuck lil boys. that one preacher was fucking jessica hawn. this post is just one reason i don't go to church. so in closing. NO PEOPEYOU WILL NOT GO TO HELL FOR HAVING TATTOOS OR PIERCINGS.GOD LOVES YOU AND YOUR TATOOS unless they were poorly done by a sratcher. lol

Junk I just love ya man!!! I do think that whatever God there is will love us even if we have bad tattoos...but there is a special hell for the ones who GIVE bad tattoos!!!...T

I'm not getting worked up ink junkie. Trust me. I will say in my old neighborhood, if you wore a shirt into the local Catholic church like you wore in your Tattoo Family picture you probably would have got jumped by some homeboys when you left. I don't find tats disrespectful, I find shirts that say, Fuck you, you fuck IN places of worship (be it tempple, church, mosques) disrespectful. However, you're trying to prove a point I assume, Sat Nam

when i wore the fuck you shirt in the church it was by accident. i was on vacation is st. louis and just left the arch and my girl wanted to go in that church. i begged not to but you know the woman is always right. so i thought i'd at least make a moment of it.

I'm not getting worked up ink junkie. Trust me. I will say in my old neighborhood, if you wore a shirt into the local Catholic church like you wore in your Tattoo Family picture you probably would have got jumped by some homeboys when you left. I don't find tats disrespectful, I find shirts that say, Fuck you, you fuck IN places of worship (be it tempple, church, mosques) disrespectful. However, you're trying to prove a point I assume, Sat Nam

Oh boy...everyone who's inked is going to hell? Perhaps this is why I'm agnostic. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and I don't begrudge anyone for having them. I also don't walk around telling people the reasons I'm agnostic. I don't insert my opinion on why god, jesus, or a higher power may or may not exist. Spare the world, ok? There are far worse things you could do to end up in hell. I prefer to think of myself as going to a place that's fun, void of judgement or harsh treatment...where everyone loves each other and drinks a lot of beer. Hopefully I'll see my beloved father and grandmother there. I'll proudly sport my tattoo.

First of all Ink Junkie, I totally get your point. You are right. But don't dog on mama cat. She's on your side. Mamacat, I think you know what ink junkie means even if coming across a bit rude. Ya'll shake hands. SASSMOUTH!!!! WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN? YOU DON'T CALL YOU DON'T WRITE!!! WE MISSED YOU! OH, YOU ARE IN SOME DEEP TROUBLE LITTLE MISTER!!! You still hold the record for the funniest response of all time in my opinion. Your PBJ think cost me an entire EVENING of laughing uncontrollablly. I couldn't speak to my wife for like 3 hours.... Finally, to this poster... One part of me wants to tell you you are entitled to your opinion. You are. That's freedom. A part of me wants to tell myself "Viva La Difference" cause without people like you, I wouldn't be able to define myself. So in a way, I owe you. I have to wholeheartedly agree with SAIYGE though and her assesment. It never ceases to amaze me the balls that evangelical Christians come off with. I go through my everyday life and I never ever have a Buddhist judge me for my life. I walk through my life, and I've never, ever been judged by a Hindu. But somehow, every time I turn around, some Christian thinks that I'm going to hell because I don't believe the same things they do. You guys just seem to have an answer for everything. I'll tell you what. This is an open invitation for you to throw down with me, and get to the root of all of this... all of these decent people who are going to hell, all of the babies born with original sin, all of the people who are imperfect sinners that will spend eternity in hell because they don't follow your rules. Here's the only two ground rules if you care to accept. 1. Start a new thread, and title it "BRING IT DADDY ROSE" 2. During the discussion, no one can A. Cite the bible as a source for anything, because no matter wether it's the word of god or not, it's a human book, and humans are imperfect. And B. No one can use FAITH as an excuse for anything, because FAITH tends to be used as a cop out for things that cannot be explained away. If you choose to accept this offer, I'll see you on the other thread. In the meantime let me leave you with one thought... to everyone out there that professes themselves to be a Christian of any kind, I would emplore you to take a good, long, hard look at the life and teachings of the JC man. If you truly ARE a Christian, you won't have to look at yourself very hard to honestly answer the question, "Would Jesus approve of my judgemental behavior?". I'm not a Christian. Not because of Jesus. Because of what a lot of people who profess to be his followers do in his name a lot of the time. If he's watching all this, I'd be willing to bet he's pretty pissed off.

NAW!! I don't think ol JC would be pissed...no I think he would be very concerned for this poor puppy who has been hoodwinked by the Bible thumpers into taking that book WAY too literally and way too seriously ...if any thinking, rational mind really really reads that book and boils down all the plagues and stonings and battles into a cohesive moral...what would that moral be? The whole purpose of thsi book I believe is to spread one message.... BE GOOD TO EACH OTHER!!!!! So no I don't think he would be pissed at all...I think he would sit down with this confused soul , crack open a bottle of Medditeranian wine...the good stuff...and let him know that having art on your skin just is not gonna make any difference and instead of judging people and yourself for bein inked use the energy and time ya spend worryin about it to go mow an invalids lawn...take a meal to the old widower next door...Teach your kids to love people not for their appearance but for their heart...invite that lonely old lady down the street who is always lookin out her window to come and have dinner with you and your family....Quit worryin about the small stuff pal cause if ya just try your best to be nice to people, in the end its ALL small stuff! Al I would like to know more about Bhuddism and Hinduism and it seems that you know a lot about it...can we have a talk?...TAz

this is a link to my left hand tattoo http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7500/lefthandvb4.jpg it is better to be an open sinner than a false saint

Tazman, I agree with you 100%. And sure! would love to talk to you about it anytime! Makes for really wonderful, enlightening conversation, though I think there are people who are actually probably "Practicing" Buddhists or Hindus, etc. that probably have a lot more info than me. I'm more of a spiritualist really, but I'd love to chat about any of it anytime!! And I think you are right. I agree with you 100% about everything you said... but be careful!! I think that puts you in the "Good Works" camp, and remember, you can't be saved by good works... only one thing can save you... Sorry. Here I go....

Tattoos. God I hate them. I mean seriously. I loath them. I don't know if there are words strong enough in the English language or any other language to express the primal passion with which I hate tattoos. As far as I am concerned, I hate all tattoos. It doesn't matter who it's on, where it is or what it is of. As for my friends who have tattoos. I ask a few simple favors. First cover them. I know you don't have to. There's no law that says it has to be covered, but out of respect a politeness I'd appreciate it if you would cover them when you're around me. Especially when I'm eating. And if you have a tattoo, please let me know, so that I can take all the due precautions to avoid ever inadvertantly coming in contact with it. Obviously, coming in contact with it will leave me with the urge to burn my clothes and take a shower of at least 72 hours in length. And I probably still won't feel clean after that. You might think tattoos are "art". I guess they technically can fit within the definition of the word "art." But who said that you can't find art revolting? If I was to wake up one day with a tattoo on my body, that would be my worst nightmare come true. One of two things would happen: Either I would go insane trying to claw it off myself, or I would keep my wits and load everything I own into my car, take it to the nearest pawn shop and take the money to the dermotology department of the local hospital and beg whatever compassionate doctor I could find to PLEASE GET THIS THING OFF OF ME NOW BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY! If I couldn't get it off right then and there then would come plan B. If it was on one of my limbs, simple enough: amputate it. If it was on my torso...hmmm....well I have a belt sander. If that doesn't work, then there's always third degree burns. I've known some people who have gotten tattoos as memorials to friends or loved ones who died tragically. Well, I guess that's okay, assuming the person would be cool with that. I think the thing that's the biggest shame is when I see a very attractive girl who has gotten a tattoo. There's another one who I will never be able to be with. It's an attrocity really. To take something so bueatiful and ruin it completey and forever. It would be like throwing acetone on the Mona Lisa. Absolutely tragic.

Uh, okay, sure... so what in the hell are you hoping to find in the way of interaction with others on this website?

Karma is just bein sarcastic Al...He's weird but he's ours!!!

Ah. Okay. You Fucker Karma.

Now, I dont subscribe to any one religion... but I do veer in the direction with a few. None of them Christian, certainly not Catholic. However, I do the guilt thing better than a catholic! (I mean that with no disrespect, by the by.) Taz, Buddhism (which rings a bell with me, in a big way) is, first and foremost, defined with the eight precepts and four noble truths. I used to love researching different religions and happened to have notes in one of my online journals about this very thing :) Four noble truths: Suffering Exists Suffering arises from the attachment to desires Suffering ceases when the attachment to desire ceases Freedom from suffering is possible by following the the 8-fold path. Right Understanding- the first step is in understanding our strengths and weaknesses, and those of others. Understanding the laws of Karma, and morality. One cannot follow the path without these basics... Especially that on Morality, if you do not understand what is right, and what is wrong, following the path will be extremely difficult. Right Thought- The Dhammapada says- "We are what we think." If inside, you are thinking dark thoughts, you will, in turn become dark. The power of thought in itself is extremely important and should never be taken lightly. If we think we are weak, we will become weak... If we dwell in angry thoughts, we will become anger. Right thought not only deals with the self, but moreso, it deals with the universal, with humankind and all life as a whole. If we do good deeds, but with the wrong intentions, it throws a pall over our acts, and they become less than they would have been, if they were selfless. Right Speech- Speech is a powerful tool. Our words often define the way others will see us, and the type of person we are. Our words have the power to heal, bring peace, and understanding. They have the power to create chaos, to inflict pain. Words are often much more powerful than the hand, and we should always take great care in what we say. Right Action- Before we take any action, we must determine our motives. Right action is being sure that what we are doing will not harm, but will do good. That our actions arent selfish, or undermined with greed, or underlying selfishness. Do things which will bring happiness, peace, freedom. Stay away from action that will bring anger, and sadness. Right Livelihood- This fold asks that we be mindful of how we support ourselves. We must take into consideration how our work affects others. It is important to be sure you are not taking advantage of others in what you do. Such as, you would not sell drugs, as they would wind up being harmful to those that use them, (unless, of course these are medications and medicines). You would not make devices that have a sole purpose of destruction.... Right Effort- This is the action of trying to do the right thing continually. It is all well and good to have good intentions, but you must also ACT on those intentions to the best of your ability. Look at things from a different angle, if you feel you cannot do anything about a situation, at least try to do something. It is important to also be forgiving of yourself... if at first you do not succeed, promise yourself to do better on the next day. Right Mindfulness- This is the action of not living in the past.... Do not dwell on the things of yesterday, Do not let yesterday take up too much of today... Be mindful of your present state, of that around you.... What should you be doing at this moment? See things as they are, without embellishing or exagerating them. Right Concentration- This is, in a way, very close if not almost the same as Right Understanding. This fold allows us to take a look at things from different perspectives.... In using Right Concentration, we might do things such as Meditation, which is often said to bring enlightenment through the release of thought. It allows us to center ourselves, and to sort through the many thoughts which clutter our minds. When our mind is clear, there is no desire, only contentment and peace. I am not a Buddhist, but I -do- very much admire and try to keep these things in mind when I do -anything.- Hope this has not offended anyone. It was not my intention to do so, I'm not the type of person to force my own ways on -anyone- else. Live and let live, yah?

[email removed] just a quick question are you a catholic or a protestant?? If you are a protestant, you may be interested to know that, that whole religion was MADE UP by King Henry the 8th just so that he could get divorced and get another wife. Does make you wonder about the real roots.... :)

Saiyge, thanks so much for the info. I only know a little about Easten philosophy and Buddhism, but it was really interesting to read that. It's funny that I was reading the information you laid out and realized that I generally try to live my life in those ways, and those beliefs are close to mine. Funny...guess I'm a Jew with a Buddhist philosophy on life! Thanks! Very interesting! And don't worry, you're not pushing beliefs onto anyone, just informing. It's a very different tone than the guy who started this thread. Dana

You are very welcome! Like I said, I am not Buddhist, and I don't claim to know or understand all the ins and outs, but that is the core, from what I -do- understand. I just try to treat people as I'd like to be treated, and nothing angers me faster than those people who hold themselves up to be better than everyone else. Or those people who think they can act any way they want to, that so long as they attend church all is forgiven, and they can do anything they feel like doing regardless of who it hurts the rest of the time. There are good people and bad people everywhere, and in every religion.

Religion is an amazing space where morality, history, mind control, and big business crash head on. To me, mind control and big business involved with something as sacred as morality is one of the most offensive things imaginable. In the morality "recipe", if you will, as soon as you mix in mind control or big business then you taint the whole meal. History should be neither here nor there, its past, indeed it taints morality often (NOW!). It should be noted that history could be good and healthy, its what we make it. I feel even if you feel you support a religion "just the good parts" you also support the history(good and bad), mind control methods, and business practices of that religion (and to some degree you do support the history). After almost getting ground up in the Cathloic machinery I have very little sympathy for people who support a religion "just for the good parts" because the bad parts are HELL on earth. Not all priests rape children, but there we're a lot of kids molested and a lot of priests involved and bishops moving priests around and for the love of god this isnt the first or only immoral act of the cathloic church. The priests in my region growing up, and I imagine most, we're raising a bunch of sheep. For christs sake thats even the metaphor pounded into our heads! Want to rasie sheep? Teach them to be sheep! And original sin is eating fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil??? WTF??? @#$% that, eat people, eat well from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and you will never have to go to your @#$%ing priest to confess your sins again... I dont mean to pick on the catholics/christians, but its the easiest one for me to grasp because of my personal experiences. Any extremist religion that claims to be the only way to heaven needs to be ditched. Its tainted. I believe people who dont take the time to create a "pure" religion for themselves that is not tainted will pay for it karmic-ally in the end(or maybe not). Let it go and fondly remember your youth and respect your parents. Take the good parts, but leave the religion behind. But whatever I dont really spend any time worrying too much about anyone else and I might be way off base, I live my life the way I do and let others do as they will as long as they dont crap on me....

Don't really have much to say on this subject other than, obviously it's better on this form to keep your personal stuff private becuase there is little room to make your point if you're in the minority here. I come from an old school Irish Catholic family. We're good people, we drink and celebrate Christmas. No one besides me mum goes to church on a regular bases, but we attend funerals, babtize babies and marry our freinds there. I also follow the try and practice the Dharma too, and try to pull the positives out of the religions I come in contact with. I also don't tell anyone you're going to hell. Sat Nam

p.s. I JUST realized there may be folks here who were abused by priests and I just want you to know that I do believe you. Just lke the pesident who was elected, just cause he's sitting there does not mean everyone supports what he does.

So THIS is what you all get up to on the weekend when i'm netless! Saiyge, what a wonderful, clear encapsulation of Buddhism! It's an amazing faith, and i'm always impressed by the fact that just about everybody who demonstrates the openness, clarity, self-awareness and goodwill promoted by the Buddha says cooly: "i'm not a buddhist." Me neither, by the way... i might be a minority here: a card-carrying christian catholic! Have you ever heard of a "cafeteria catholic"? We take what we want and toss out the rest. So i'm down with the importance of the Blessed Mother (Auntie Mary), and i believe in the real presence and the apostolic succession (technical details), but i toss out closed-mindedness and enforced celibacy! And, always, i keep it in mind that i could be absolutely wrong, and the most loathsome book-thumping, tunnel-visioned evangelist could be totally right. Keeps me honest. I'm surprised that people who despise us so much should come and try to browbeat us into lining up at the laser remover. The reductio ad absurdum is, of course, if it's not okay to decorate ourselves with ink, neither should we use makeup, take pride in our clothes, nor tend our hair (except you and me, TAz). But i thank the possible troll for getting an interesting chat going.

-blush- Thank you :) I'm sure someone who DOES adhere to that particular religion could smack me around with a hundred other things, or point out that I am wrong somewhere. I wouldnt doubt it. :) I just try to 'love' everyone. I'm happier that way. The only people I really have problems with are people that are closed up and live in the world of black and white. (Or, in general, people that are harming others in some way) Posts like the one that started this thread, which was clearly well written, and well thought out, upset me, because you can see the potential in this person for good, but they are living internally, with their shutters closed and the windows locked down tight. This way of thinking not only hurts everyone around them, but most of all, the person holding this view of the world. I feel very sorry for her or him. They have a weight they are holding on themselves and instead of trying to fix it, so they can live with themselves peacefully, they are slinging arrows at everyone else. I'm in no way colorblind, and prefer to live in almost every shade and hue, never primaries... and above all, try not to hurt anyone else because of my own issues.... which is the harder part. Anyhoo, religion and politics are two things I usually refuse to talk about. Two of the most volitile (sp) subjects I can think of.

Saiyge Thanks for the info dear!...I guess I am a cathoprotejewdontknowwhat the fugIam!!! But you seem to be distilling religion down into the same theme... "just try to be good to everybody" Gabe for once you and I are in solidarity! Thanks everyone for your comments!!

Anytime sunshine. Glad I can give _you_ some information for once :)

Have you ever heard of a "cafeteria catholic"? We take what we want and toss out the rest. So i'm down with the importance of the Blessed Mother (Auntie Mary), ...... YEP! xo Purrrrrrr....

I wonder if someone like godlovesme really thinks they'll do when they drop a hate-post in a place like this? Are we supposed to start pointing our ink-encrusted fingers at each other and start accusing? Are we suposed to see a flash of light and start clawing our beauties out of our flesh? The recovery group i sometimes belong to has this notion of "God as i understand Him" and i guess that includes if i understand Him to be a Her. But i have yet to find a better way to deal on this subject: it HAS to be God as i understand Him/Her/It... i am highly skilled and extensively trained in expressing myself, but there's nothing more futile than trying to explain your spiritual experience with anybody. Best you can do is LIVE your spiritual experience... be loving and thoughtful, value honesty and consideration, etc, etc. And yes, TAz, ain't it wunnerful how every real faith always comes back to the same thing? Sure, wear your turban, snip your kid's pecker, eschew fish on fridays... whatever! But those are the details. The God that i know knows what's really important: how you deal with people... whether you can sleep at peace... how you treat your possessions... Love and honour. Great stuff.

Hey Ras...How ya doin today buddy?

Hey man i'm good, even though i didn't win the lottery, God (or the aliens) didn't come to save the world, and TCE decided to leave. I'm glad i got mixed into this gumbo before though. I guess TattooNOW is in a state of flux. It happens. I'm looking forward to getting my home internet soon so we can have a proper conversation. What's up with you bro?

Poking holes in people ya know...ssdd!!

Hey Guys, Blow Saiyge a Kiss, cause she gave you guys some really good, and really accurate info about Buddhism, and the topic at hand. I don't have much else to add right now, except that I noticed there's no new thread posted titled "BRING IT DADDY ROSE". Not surprised. Never get to talk to those guys about their stuff. Those 2 rules just never seem to appeal to em. Oh well.

normally i could go on a philosophical rant about the farce that the laws of gOD puts into the feeble minds of christians. about how to stop all natural urges. be it sexuality (hetero or homo). the bible are awful guidlines to help you cope with life and then death. In theory it makes sense and that walking blindly does lead to bliss (heaven). The bible states you cant even cut your hair. and if some righteous christian wants to test me on that ill get the quote. Its out dated. Its a tool, and its a crutch. and as much as i find it amusing i marvel at its ingenious. Its ability to have the power over such mass of people. people whos subconsious is beaten into constant guilt. Why follow someone who makes you feel bad for everything you naturally do. If the bible was made for logical and rational minds, then why would rational minds be so upset from ink in the skin. so its not. so eat up. eat the pain and the guilt everyday. and let that tattoo bring you down to the putty in which you are supposed to be. molded into the super human. the super human who as no bad feeling, who can not yell and scream, who can not hate, and disagree, who can not masturbate (mmmm) and fuck anyone. so get rid of the tattoo and become the christian superstar. or grow up and look at it as what it is. its a scar. its there for the rest of your conscious life. You change and with change there is consequence there is ups and downs. with change and experience there is memories, good and bad. learn from your experience. so like i said i COULD go on a rant but whats my 2 cents worth when your talking to a drone with blinders? just remember to wash your hands after touching christians..... they have dirty minds.

Hey - hey! This Christian does NOT have a dirty mind! It's just filled with wild sexy thoughts, tattoo ideas, plots for world conquest, and little wads of bubblegum. Then again, me calling me a Christian is maybe a little rich; i love jesus, and i go to church, but i also chant NAM-MYOHO-RENGE-KYO, attend Hindu prayers, reason with Rastas, and sleep with atheists (did i say that?). Usually when we say "christian" we mean a certain type (born-again, evangelical, fundamental, fire & brimstone and republican); but there are others... regular humans just trying to make a buck and get laid. Careful not to profile!

whenever any subject is brought up, especially religion, we have to visualise the boiled down entity of what it is we are talking about. that way it is easier for us to tear them apart and make is feel bigger and better than them

TATTOO. . . YE WORSHIP YE KNOW WHAT "Ye worship ye know not what. . ." Jesus Christ, John 4:24 Throughout history the tattoo bears the mark of paganism, demonism, Baal worship, shamanism, mysticism, heathenism, cannibalism and just about every other pagan belief known. The tattoo has NEVER been associated with Bible Believing Christians. And whenever and wherever, in history Christianity appears – tattoos disappear. The only exception -- 20th century, lukewarm, carnal, disobedient, Laodicean Christians. The birth of the tattoo has always born the fruits of pagan religion and mysticism. Without exception, research after research, study after study, book after book, the roots of the tattoo never wavers. so all you pagans can and will rot in hell!! god be with you ,he loves me more because i have not desacrated my temple. get right with god

Well in the first place you must be a liar...you have not desecrated your temple/...you said you were tattooed... Ok I tried to be nice but you are gettin on my nerves...go find a place where you can do some good bible thumper Ya MORON!!!

Heh. Thats your version of god honey. Not mine. Sweet dreams :)

God loves you more, huh? Hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure you're the one that's going to burn in Hell. Give Satan a big sloppy kiss for me when you get there.

I was brought up as a born again christian as I'm sure you are (reading your ignorant posts and moronic rantings), and all I can say is the only reason I "strayed" from this "religion" (cult) is because of close minded people like you. Don't spew forth biblical scriptures because I already know them, for example: Titus 3:9 - But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. (law meaning scripture) James 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (so yea you are guilty) Leviticus 21:5 - Priests must not shave their heads or shave off the edges of their beards or cut their bodies. ( those preachers better stock up on their Rogaine) Et Cetera, Et Cetera... We can also argue that many of the other rules that are laid out in Leviticus are not followed today. Does that mean that the whole book of Leviticus, or even the Bible should not be followed? No! It just means that we need to carefully analyze what the theme of the Bible is, and realize what it means for us today. The book of Leviticus contained several laws that were made to keep the children of Israel healthy and holy for God. Tattoos in those days were extremely dangerous and could result in injury, disease, or death. The verse also is referring to a pagan ritual of putting tattoo marks on oneself for the dead, in order to protect oneself from the spirit world and the wrath of other gods. We now are under a new covenant where Christ’s sacrifice covers our sins in a different way than the old Levitical laws did, which is seen in the letter to Hebrews which states: “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.” Hebrews 8:6-7 (NIV). Don't mix up "religion" and faith. Or in other words of the late great Mark Twain: "Don't let your schoolin' interfere with your education." I'm not trying to offend you but maybe you should open your mind a bit before you come on a public forum preaching your own beliefs with no respect of others... Stay Gold... TS

They say fight fire with fire?...Well we fight this asshole with Tootsweet!! Good job Toot!!!

Godlovesme, I guess it's time to earn a few more frequent flier miles, so I can go to Hell first class........................ It's you fuckers who put the CUNT in the C-UNTRY!!!! You're the root of all evil....................passing judgement when YOUR lord told you that judgement doesn't belong to you. You're wearing the mark upon your forehead too, you fuck, and you think just because you've paid a little lip service to God, your sins have been washed away!?! Go fuck your mother's corpse!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SLH } :^@~

Yea you put the CUNT in country and I'll put the DICK in dixie

C'mon God loves me.... Start a thread, call it "Bring it Daddy Rose" and let's get it on. You owe me some answers. It's your duty as a Christian to spread the word, you owe me.... and every other (pagan?) out there to save us. Start the thread. What are you waiting for? Put on the full armour of god, and let's go....

By the way, your "Throughout history the tattoo bears the mark of paganism, demonism, Baal worship, shamanism, mysticism, heathenism, cannibalism and just about every other pagan belief known. The tattoo has NEVER been associated with Bible Believing Christians. And whenever and wherever, in history Christianity appears – tattoos disappear. The only exception -- 20th century, lukewarm, carnal, disobedient, Laodicean Christians. The birth of the tattoo has always born the fruits of pagan religion and mysticism. Without exception, research after research, study after study, book after book, the roots of the tattoo never wavers. " is a statement of fact, but a little narrow. It's actually way more expansive than that. So..... so what? What's your point?

Erm hello WIT????? Am I missing the point or wasnt there one? If u thot it was wrong then why get one? let alone a whole bunch of them? What about scars? there markings on our skin? Stretch marks?

I wish you the best of luck, as with those views and that attitude, you will not have a happy life, in my opinion.

Good morning! I see Godlovesme survived the night. Friend, i'd say you're pretty presumptuous to say you know who God loves more. Frankly, a God who loves one of us ants more than another could not have created the universe i live in. Toots - we are not worthy to bask in the radiance of your post. (but God lets us anyway) Excellent!

Godlovesme.....can you even hear how ignorant and closeminded you sound? You sound so self- righteous to say that everyone believes the same as you. I don't even think hell exists! But I'm a Jew so according to the ignorant fucks like you that I've encountered in my life, I'm already going to this place that I think doesn't exist. I'll be rotting in the ground or burnt up into little ashes right along with you...but damn it I'm gonna enjoy the time I have here and I'm gonna put art on my skin with the best of them! Hopefully you can be somewhat happy in this life...it's a shame to be so jaded waiting for eternal bliss that may not ever come (especially with the judgmental attitude you have). Dana PS- Tootsweet you rock...glad you were able to get something good out of the "cult"!

GodLovesMe i also am a christian, and have spent time thinking about this same subject....however, if you are to go by the bible, take care to investigate everything. I am not saying how you feel is wrong, but this may help you to feel better about things. Once God gave the ten commandments to Moses, he said that they did not need to go by all of the 'rules' he had before. No more sacrificing, etc. Or, to put it simply, to go by the 'rules' in the new testament, and simply learn from the old one. the only thing i can find in the bible about marking ones body is an old law in the old testament...so, are we still to go by it? it's a personal choice

and crackbaby, judaism is a religeon, not a race. Furthermore, the Jews being his chosen people does not have to mean they will be the only ones saved...it could mean many things. It could mean that they were who he worked through to spread his word, it could mean that they are who will show others...there is no saying and, even more so, please do not disprespect other peoples beliefs by calling them a load of shit or anyting like that. Nobody is saying that what you believe is "shit". GodLovesMe was respectful in his post, you should be respectful in yours...plus, if you think it's shit, you probably don't know enough about it to comment much

sorry, i'm posting as i'm reading through. mamkat had every right to be upset...just as i do. Not all christians think the same...there are SO MANY different groups within christianity, it is NOT fair to group people just because they call themself christian. I don't tell budists that they are full of shit because they worship some fat statue...i don't tell people who believe in greek mythology that they are full of shit because they believe in mutiple gods...so why don't you guys shove it and stop grouping people so much...it's so disrepsectful.

one more thing to say and that's it anyone who is grouping all christians into a group is just as ignorant as the christians that think being a christian makes them better than other people. Yes, i'm a christian Yes, i'll proclaim it No, it doesn't make me better than you No, it doesn't mean i'm like everyone else so STOP GROUPING ME WITH EVERYONE ELSE to me, christianity is about believing in God and Christ and the reason he came here....so stop including me in all of your comments about believers.

First off I don't think this "godlovesme" asshole has any tattoos at all. I think this fucker came on this site to preach and try to convert. You need to find a new forum for that. I wouldn't say I'm religious so much as spiritual. I nearly died ten years ago this November 15th and my tattoo wasn't even a hint of a thought when I was in gods "waiting room". And with the feeling of complete pure love I had at that moment I have a fairly good feeling I wasn't going to hell. Then again maybe god has a sick sense of humour. No one knows where they are going when they die. If we did then it wouldn't be so scary for people. If you really believed in all the bullshit your puking out then you wouldn't have gotten the two tattoos you have now. If you began to feel this way after your tattoos then you would have done whatever it takes to have them removed. My advice to you is fucking relax.

Not to kick a dead horse, but it has always amazed me that christians (no, I am not grouping them all together, but I am speaking against a majority) will take one little bit of the bible, read it, not understand it, and completely change it to their own meaning. For instance, the laws of leviticus. If read in their entirety, you get the laws of priest not trimming their beards, etc, like toot said. Your God did not want you mangling your body in the hopes that a "pagan" god would help your friend's soul pass easier. But they completely ignore even the ten commandments because it doesn't suit them to obey. You say that you don't? How about remember the Sabbath and keep it holy? The Sabbath, according to the bible, is on Saturday, not Sunday. Why was it changed, dogma from the church and it was easier to convert the pagans as Saturday is "Saeter's" day. A day that represented a mischevious entity. Oh, by the by, read Chronicles from the King James Version. God says, in red letters, I have your name tattooed on my thigh. It is sad when an Odinist seems to know the bible better than the christian making accusations.

I didn't mean to group any person in with the fundies. I could never do that on purpose. Its mean. Fundies are dirty. I do however have to disagree with you not being part of a group. there are alot of people who believe in the same philosophy as yourself which makes you part of that group, and inherintly you will face the bombs dropped on that group. A load of shit is rude and i apologize for that. Judaism is a religion, yes. The Jews were a people. An inslaved nomadic tribe conquered by egypt ages before they found god floatin around without contacting anyone for god knows how long. The fact is all religion is started to bring about good things and as such should strive only for those good things. Intolerence, pushing/forcing believe/values on others brings a negative perception to those who disagree with the teachings being pushed/forced upon them. I don't think the modern red state christian fundamentalism group is the only group of christians out there. They are just the goiter on the neck of the judeo/christian entity that every one points at. if you don't fit in that group who legislates morality and thinks of others as less for thier lack of agreeance then I truly am sorry.

yes, you can group me as a christian, but you cannot assume that i act like all the others. Just like the comments made about catholics that mamacat got upset at, it upsets me when i hear people say "all you christians just judge judge judge. you don't understand the bible, you just pick and choose" blah blah blah. You don't know what i do in my daily life, and i have not given enough statements including my beliefs for you to rightly judge. I have never judged someone simply because they do not think the same way i do, and i have never told other people they are wrong for thinking the way that they think. Thank you for recognizing that what you said could have been done more tactfully. as for the person that says they know more about the bible than christians on here, you don't know the extent of my knowledge, or anyone else's. Yes, i do believe that the person who originated this post took one verse and nothing more when coming to their conclutions, but you should not make blanket statements. nobody should.

Grrrrrrr....If you read my post again. You will notice that I DIDN'T blanket all christians together. I simply said, "It is sad when an Odinist seems to know the bible better than the christian making accusations." Notice that I used the word "seems" as well as the statement "than the christian making accusations". I, in no way, made any statement towards you, now did I?

SSSSSEEEEEEEE DUCKY?????? SSSSEEEEEEEEEE???????

oh shush, daddy :P i did see that you wrote it that way, and i'm sorry for a false accusation. Like i said before, and i know it's not excuse, but i've been super tired and this is one of the only subjects that really pushes my buttons. sorry again!

There’s no question that tattoos originated from the satanic ritual of blood-letting and cutting of the flesh as described in 1 Kings 18. In fact, in Leviticus chapter 19 verse 28, where the Lord clearly condemns the tattoo, "Ye shall not make any . . . print any marks upon you." Notice what else is included in the same verse. . . Obviously, by the context, the Lord connects the forbidden "marks" or tattoo, – "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh. . ." "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:28) and i dont believe that any priests ever molested any boys ...it was a falsehood planted by satan to confuse us and spread discontent ..

WOW. Dude who are you trying to prove what to. If you don't like your tattoos or think they're wrong fine...stop bugging everyone here with your closeminded self righteous attitude.

well bro, 1) yes those priest fucked those lil boys in the ass. 2) you said you had 2 tattoos 3)since you say tattooed people are going to hell, SEE YOU IN HELL MY FRIEND better to be an admitted sinner, than a false saint. jesue died for our sins, if having ink is a sin then i'm forgivin, and when i get another tattoo i'll be forgivin for it too.

No, you're the falsehood planted by Satan...............he told me personally!!!!! We'll be expecting you........................... SLH

yeah, that Satan sure gets around.... If I were him, I'd get a fuckin' job. Always corrupting this dude, and posessing that chick... he's a right nosey little motherfucker pokin' his head around in everyone else's biz. And put some fuckin' clothes on! For Go... Heaven's sake! Runnin' around like fuckin' Tommy Lee half naked! And if that's not bad enough, he keeps promising me the recipe for some barbeque sauce, but he just never delivers. I guess he's too good for me....

yeah, that Satan sure gets around.... If I were him, I'd get a fuckin' job. Always corrupting this dude, and posessing that chick... he's a right nosey little motherfucker pokin' his head around in everyone else's biz. And put some fuckin' clothes on! For Go... Heaven's sake! Runnin' around like fuckin' Tommy Lee half naked! And if that's not bad enough, he keeps promising me the recipe for some barbeque sauce, but he just never delivers. I guess he's too good for me....

Guys/Gals: Look.. No matter what you say, or how many points you make, this [email removed] character is just not going to get it. He is not willing to listen to anyone's point of view other than his own. If you notice, he will not respond directly to any inquiries made to him. He just wants to post verses from the bible and spout hateful and closeminded ideas and thoughts. That's what he's been brainwashed to do. I guess you really can't fault the guy for not having enough intelligence to think for himself. It happens. He has also mysteriously forgotten that he himself has 2.. -count 'em- 2 tattoos of his own. So while I think that all of you have brought up very good points, observations and arguments, this asshole isn't paying any attention to any of it. Just ignore the fuck, and hopefully he'll go the fuck away. There is no point in getting worked up over a piece of shit like this. Believe what you want, live how you want, and don't let anyone goad you into defending who you are. That's my take on the whole thing. theval

I like girls....

I used to like girls. But girls don't seem to like me so much anymore. Maybe I'll go gay. Naw. I guess not. My taste in fashion is nowhere near haute enough. And my house is a mess. No self-respecting gay guy would let his house get to this point. Plus I guess there's that whole "I like girls thing". Guess I'm gonna have to just keep slugging it out...

I like manbearpig. I'm sthuper stherial. D.R. I still like ya, does that count? J, Did you finish that damn drawing yet?

Ok, [email removed], if you wish to quote verse to us poor sinners, I hope you also realize that your precious Leviticus states that if your child dishonors you (yells at you, talks back, acts up in school, makes you look like the FLAMING jackass that you are) you must kill them. And (if you are married) that every 28 days you burn everything your wife touched during her period. If you want to live by the book, don't fuck around, follow it exactly or STFU! And as far as your speaking of pagan rituals, bloodletting, so on and so forth, if you were truly a student of religion and not just some brainwashed pew diving bible thumper you would realize that Christianity is simply Paganism rehashed, repackaged, and resold. Doesn't it strike you as a bit strange that all major Christian holidays just happen to land on former Pagan holidays? Like, ummm, Eostre-pagan fertility festival=Easter-Christ's resurrection (don't you idiots ever wonder why bunnies are a symbol of easter?). Christmas, falls right at the same time as 2 different pagan festivals, depending on your brand of Pagan, Candlemas AND Winter Solstice. I won't even get into the fact that the timeline in the Bible is WAY off of anything that geologists have found, not to mention the fact that Christianity did not come from JC, but from a Roman monk about 500 AD, So do us a favor, don't attack our beliefs and we won't point out the holes and inconsistencies in yours.

Theval: I am trying my butt off to get that thing done. I have soooooooo many pictures of vampires and girls I think that I am going to stab myself. It's been fun though and a good challenge to get myslef back in the saddle. Oh! And I got your e-mail on myspace! You will just have to read it...friend! hehehe! Al: I have a splended website for you. And as much as I would love to display it here for all to us at their disposal I will just e-mail it to you.... Uh, I do have the right email address don't I Al? The one you send to my hotmail account?

uh, I suppose.... i guess it would count a lot more if you were DOING me and liked me, but since you are not, and you are taken and you live in florida somewhere, and you are half my age probably, and cute but spunky, (slightly irritating in a good way) and..... ...aw, okay, You're a pretty great chick. I guess it still counts anyway. Thanks.

I'll send it to ya again... check your email.

slightly irritating in a good way? how the hell does that work?

A few things, but Ill try keep it short so as not to insult the chosen. Its so hard to hold my tongue, er, fingers. One thing worth repeating: Christianity is simply Paganism rehashed, repackaged, and resold. That doesnt make it good or bad, thats just the truth. Some things I think are inaccurate. The ten commandments were clearly old testament, and Jesus brought in the new testament. I wouldnt be surprised if the "reset rules" button was clicked at the time of moses and the ten commandments, I thought it was clicked again when Jesus came around. That is, the turn the other cheek lessons of the new testament and what not usurp the eye for an eye lessons of old. the bible is a fascinating history lesson, but you really need to throw out like 3/4s of it if you are using it as a moral compass. The jews are a race as well as a religion. If your mother is jewish then you are jewish by jewish law whether you practice the religion or not. That makes it a race. People that think any book re-written for thousands of years to perfect population control is the word of god are sheep. Baaaaaa. Nothing wrong with that, its a free world. God didnt write those books through people, people did. now, you could argue that we are all god so god did write the books, but then your admitting we are all god and so those authors were no more or less divine than we are... ooopse, if I insulted any sheeple Im sorry, but please realize there are indeed many books of wisdom and we should take lessons from all of them. And I respect your right to believe whatever you want. Satan isnt confusing anyone about the priests molesting little boys except you and your @#$%ed up shattered brain. Open your eyes buddy, those precious servants of God need to get their rocks off somehow and... oooh, my bloods boiling... Deep breath, dont let the troll get you gaber... bible guy, you really need to think deep and reflect on what your words mean. Having faith is a powerful thing, denying reality is very dangerous. Life is too short to live a lie. To leave this conversation on a somewhat positive note, to bring about world peace all you religious nuts need to realize that its really simple... Very simple and the action cant be corrupted unless you have a few thousand pages behind ya... you can throw away all your bibles and torahs and korans and rules and regulations and practice one thing every day all day in your life to be on the path to nirvana (if it exists)... LOVE

Well said, Gabe... very well said.

i could say something, but since Al would probably call me heated again, i'm not going to.

I double dog dare you Ducky!....

Say it Ducky! Go on! Yay team!

Come on Duck....Eeeeeeeeeveryone's doing it....

Heated is okay. Say it anyway.

RELEASE THE HOUNDS DUCKY!!!!!!!!!

I just like that people get upset when christians mention other religions, yet find it perfectly fine to atttack their religion and call it total crap. Very disrespectful

.... If absolute power corrupts absolutely; where does that leave God?

That is where free will comes in ;)

In heaven, duh, :P. I sort of thought...rather hoped this topic would be dead by now. Everyone gets too sensitive about this subject. Everyone has their beliefs. Just as there are always going to be litte 13 year olds who want to get a tattoo, there's always going to be somebody who feels that it's their job to push their beliefs on you. Just accept it, like you accept your best bud's smelly feet (or any other bad aspect). Nobody is going to change anyone's mind here. Ever remember when you were a little kid, and either you or somebody you knew would cover your ears and start shouting random shit such as "blah blah blah blah!" so you didn't have to hear what the person was saying to you? Well...Talking about religion is kind of like that. I'll tell you what, this is how I look at the situation. I believe in God, however, I am who I am. As a human, I'm going to fuck up, do things I "shouldn't" do, and push the bounderies. It doesn't matter if the bible says what I should or shouldn't do it...I'm gonna do it, because that's how I am. But just try and remember, I'm not God, you're not God, we are not God. I'm not the one with the clipboard saying who gets into the club and who doesn't. So whatever, live and let live. Now I also accept that I could be wrong, and that's just fine with me. So I lived my life tryin to be a better person, no loss. But religion or not, I think we can all settle on something...and this is a lot like what gabe said. Just love, but do more than that, accept people for who they are. Yeah, they might fuck up, but so do you, so before you point your finger at everyone else, point it at yourself. Oh...and one last thing about this whole topic that bugs the shit out of me. Don't tell me Christianity is wrong or doesn't exist. But then again, don't tell me Buddhism doesn't, or that Judaism, or Hinduism doesn't either. Your ass isn't dead, so just like me, YOU don't know for sure. Believe what you want, but until you cross that line, that's all it is, a belief. -)eremy-

Tattoos???

To me people like george bush will be in hell not a person that lived an honest life and has a piece of art work on there body.

Religion & Politics,just like a family reunion! Where is everybody?

I'll bring the hotdogs and coke.....

oooh...ooooh...... I call s'mores!!

Sooooooooooooo,this thumper raised a lot of thought.Who cares?Throughout the thread people where saying that there GOD loves them and is ok with tattoos,would'nt cast them out..........Cool.................. Who cares?What do tattoos have to do with religion?Unless,natually you have religious tattoos and that's up to you.I don't care.

........................................and I'll bring the fireworks!!!!!!!What's a reunion without the potencial loss of life and limb? Don't grade me on my spelling

We might have to start a new thread on this one, or just let it go. I feel exhausted reading it...

Ducky (or anyone), dont ever feel like you need to hold back just because we all use strong words. Push back as much as you feel like. As far as no one ever changing their mind and we are all pissing in the wind cause no one ever changes their mind about religion, I have to hope to disagree. I have changed and refined my religious and political views time and time again in my short life so far. Because we dont know for sure it seems like theres plenty of room for thoughts and ideas to evolve. Its by discussing things that we actually change and grow our view points. I like to listen to everyone and talk and learn as much as i can and tweak my beliefs from what I've learned. I would never presume that other people are so close minded as to not be listening or change their mind and I try my best to keep as open a mind as possible cause who knows whos right. I dont know if I told anyone "christianity was crap", but I did say it evolved from paganism and that the holy book was re-written and all that. Its true. Ive never been dead so I wont tell you if heaven exists or not, but certainly we can tell the truth about the history of any particular religion. That is, as I separated out the issues earlier, we can ethically attack the history, big business, and mind control of any religion because that is reality. In simple terms we dont know whether the molesting priests will go to heaven or hell, but we know they went to jail for being guilty of serious crimes. Expand that, we dont know who in the population is going to heaven or hell but we know when books have been re-written and why. If some organization tells me Im not going to heaven because Im not one of them, then Im sorry to offend anyones sensibilities, but that organization is tweaked, no?? You say you only take the good parts and I say they taught me Im going to hell! I wont take any offense, Im thankful for the very valuable lessons and wouldn't have it any other way, but Ill call said religion out as mind control. Im open minded enough too consider other possibilities, but I want proof its not. I dont feel a religions morality trumps its reality as a whole, and while I imagine some(many?) feel offended by my insensitivity, fact is organized religion is a lot more than some good lessons people pick and choose to live by. Im not attacking the good things you take from a religion (I take them too), Im attacking (some)religions as incredible political organizations with abusive far-reaching power (more power than countries!).

Jeese, I feel like I might be going to hell, thats the last you'll hear from me I think!

Gabe, that was awsome. I spose my words weren't that well put together. I didn't mean to come off as if I thought you attacked my beliefs by saying they weren't true or anything. To be honest with you, it's really hard for me to even choose what I believe at this point.But I've got a question for you. Not sure how old you are...not trying to say you're really old or something, but yeah...when you older guys were kids, was there really this much bullshit politics involved in everything? I mean, I can't turn on the t.v. without second guessing whatever everyone says. "this toilet paper is the softest" "no, this one is better, bigger, ect"...and when it comes down to it, I just want to whipe my ass without wondering about the damn product I'm using. Just a little venting, and a small attempt at being comical about it :).

Well, let me just say this about that... (I like what you both said)... Here's the problem with religeons..... All of them... they are made by men. Forged by men, written by men, pontificated by men, and abused by men to their own advantage. People, you just have to know that wether you are a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist, whatever, religeons are developed by human kind to explain things that we can't explain, and to try to give some order to our lives in the face of forces we cannot understand. And thus, by their very nature, they are all flawed to an extent. Nobody's got the one truth. If you go back and look at any religeon, I'll pick on Christianity a little for the sake of arguement, but it could just as easily be Islam or Hinduism or anything else, you will notice that they all got their start the same way. They all had a point where human beings had to make interpretations about divinity according to what we know about the nature of things, which is usually, basically shit. Do you know how we got the bible? How the gospels were chosen to include, and which to toss? It wasn't handed down from God on some golden platter. Some former Pagan Roman Emperor (Constantine) goes Christian, (why? There's a can of worms we could look at...) decides that he needs a little consistency, he has a council with a bunch of his buddies and they decide "We better come up with one version... can't hardly rule with all this dissent and disagreement about stuff", so they kick back over chicken wings and pick and choose which truths will go in, and which will get tossed, untill they all feel like they agree, and there you have it. There's your holy book. The word of god. With a little compromise thrown in. Then, it gets transcribed over and over and over again by monks and scholars for hundreds and hundreds of years, with no way of knowing wether the original text is what was translated later, etc. etc. etc. And now, even with all that HUMAN history, it's the indisputable word of God. From his lips, to your table. Same thing with the Koran, Torah, Buddhist teachings, everything else. No Different. THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF HUMANITY IN THIS DIVINITY. So, I say in closing to the original poster what so many other people have so eloquently said, Brother, you have precious little way of knowing wether the condemnation you are spouting would have come from the mouth or your Lord. Can I believe that people would SAY Jesus would condemn tattoos? Sure. But I'll tell you what, based on his record of actions, as it were... I'd say, It's just not his style. Walk the walk... maybe others will too.

All I am saying is 10,000 naughty priests in 20 years.... something has got to fucking give.

Gabe, I fully recognize that the bible has been re-written and was, of course, written by men. However, as in any religion, a certain extent of it comes down to faith. For instance, i believe in God, therefore i believe that it was translated a certain way for a purpose. As for those pushing religions, there are way too many people like that, and many don't even know much about what they are talking about (aka, the guy who posted this thread). all i ask is that people will start to concider weather someone is like that or not. I have never told someone that, because they don't call themselves a christian, they are not saved. I've never passed judgement (meaning saying if they are going to hell or heaven...yes, i've called people bitches and stuff :P) on other people reguarding what religion they believe, just as i have never passed judgement on people for having piercings, tattoos, or their sexual preference. Live and let live. Part of my beliefs is that all i can do is state what i believe, and it's out of my hands. Pushing only turns people away...if i went around telling people they are giong to hell unless they think like me, who would want to think like me? i guess, long story short...yes, there are flaws in every religion, and there are extreme people in every religion, but that doesn't mean every person in that religion is like that, or that the religion is wrong to believe.

Turning to Old Testament Levitical Law to govern our behavior is a very slippery slope indeed and one that will prove to be highly subjective in today’s culture. For example Old Testament law forbade the wearing of clothing made from more than one material. ("‘Keep my decrees. "‘Do not mate different kinds of animals. "‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Lev 19:19) It also prohibits the trimming of beards or sideburns. ("‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. Lev 19:27) Yet, the same people who rail against tattoos often do so with a clean shaven face wearing a nice cotton/polyester blend. Very frankly, there is a great propensity by people of religious faith to adopt the norms of their culture and then use a little history, a little theology, and a little logic to baptize those norms as theologically correct and God's will for everyone. But the truth of the matter is that it is usually little more than a subjective shell game that is being used to justify personal preference. So, as it relates to Old Testament Law, you are probably neither closer to or further away from satisfying its requirements than any of the rest of us. Additionally, even New Testament "laws" or directives are generally disregarded by the vast majority of Christians. (1Cor 13:34 ¶ women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.) (1Cor 11:4-5 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.) Almost universally, these directives have been cast aside as "cultural issues" or "not for our time." Yet, where in the scripture are we told that these are cultural or limited by time? Where are we specifically released from these directives? Again, it seems that cultural norms or personal preference often shape our theology more than our theology shapes our cultural norms or personal preference. This is not a dynamic any of us should be proud of, but it is one you should be aware of. The theological truth is that we are called to live our lives as New Testament Christians not under the law, but by grace under the leadership of the Holy Spirit: Romans 7:4-6 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Gal 3:10-14 10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no-one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Gal 5:18-25 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. What does all of this mean for you? It means that if the Holy Spirit is convicting you about tattoos, then you should not get them. Or, if you already have them, you should exercise repentance before God and modesty before others. If you have no such conviction, then you are free to do as you please always remembering this: Everything that does not come from faith is sin. Ro 14:23 Hope this helps. P.S. We as artists, at some time in our career are confronted with this issue, so I hope it gives you all the answers to give those that direct this question to you. God Bless. This is something I saw on another site, thought it may be of some interest.Again I did not right this.Rob

When ya boil all the rhetoric down it all distills into one fuckin sentence that any idiot should be able to grasp,...."Be good to each other"..."bein good" does include tolerance in others beliefs...if "godlovesme" chooses to believe that his God is the vengeful God of the old testament he should have that right. Bee good to each other folks!...See YA!!!.......TAz

I have come to believe like taz that the main base for any religion is to do good things to one another. As such the way I chose what is "good" or "evil" is that "good" or "evil" actions affect on those around me. In my opinion some people need books to tell them that beating thier wife, or fuckin the pew boy, or whatever else, is wrong and I welcome those to read whatever will keep them from acting on those evil urges. Likewise those out there that can precieve evil acts from thier observance of the reactions of others, probably don't need others to minister to them. The main reason people of no religion are offended by christians or muslims ect.. Is, that most all religious people feel the need to espose those beliefs to whoever they can. which doesn't sound bad, except when you say "I believe the only way a person goes to heaven is..." then you usually alienate those who don't believe that way which is very offensive. And that goes for every religion. Especially christianity and islam whose religious philosophy tells them to tell anyone they can in the case of christians and kill those who wont listen for islam. Until we can throw that missionary aspect out with the other antiquainted beliefs that are in there, like the whole burnin the ole ladies shit every 28 days. Then we'll just have to keep sluggin it out. But hell I like bitchin' and so does everyone else wether you admit it or not.

I never understood how "being good to one another" translated into "yell at people who you have NO relationship with... and ram down their throats that they should change because of what you think is sinful." blah.

Actually, the bible is from the Jewish Torah...not some stuff some people chose to throw together. The only difference is that Jews believe that Jesus was a great prophet, while Christians believe he is the son of God. Jews are waiting for God to send is son for the first, while Christians are waiting for his 2nd coming

The jews are waiting for the messiah...not necessarily a son of God...could be a daughter! But seriously...being brought up a Jew I was taught that the reason we don't believe Jesus is the messiah is because there is still so much wrong with the world, still crime and murder and all that bad stuff. So quite frankly I'm not holding my breath, because no matter how much faith I have I don't think that anything is going to stop the downward spiral our world is heading. Except maybe total destruction. Lovely thoughts before bed. Oh well...such is life. Dana

Oh and I forgot to add..the Bible is only a portion of the Torah. The writing of the Bible continued when Jesus came...the Torah stops.

Well, these are intresting and disturbing words you have here "Godlovesme". You see, i understand ur concern. However, as most people do, u have taken Lev. 19:28 out of context. First of all, its an old covenant. But, lets look a little farther. The verse right before 19:18 says that you shall not cut ur hair at the sides, or ur beard. So, that means that if u shave ur face, ur as guilty as a tattooed person? How is that? well yes pagans made tattoos for their gods to recognize them as followers. Pagans also shave their heads/facial hair. But these laws were made by God for the Jews to be set apart from their neighbors. Remember, the old covenant never worked, thats why God stopped with the Jewish people and gave us Christ. In I believe the book of John, Jesus says before u attept to remove the splinter from ur neighbor's eye, try taking the log out of ur own. The more familiar of course is juge not lest ye be judged. The book of Acts has another thing in it. Where God set down in a dream all the meats (pigs and other things unclean to a Jewish person) he said through Christ all things become clean. Lastly, in the book of James, James 2:10 says "For whoever keeps the whole lawand yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." So now we look at other things. Nothing is inately evil. Rock music, tattoos, skateboarding, nothing is completely evil. All of it can be used for the greater glory of God. How can it be that just one of these things might send someone to Hell, we all fall short, no matter what. As James so eloquently writes, an adulterer is just as guilty as a murderer. As a side note, Paul even did some questionable things, as in his sermon to the Greeks, he told them their "unknown God" could be the God of the bible. He used some of their own beliefs to challenge and even win over some people. So why not use this form of art as a way to glorify the one who made us. Believe me, sir, their is o backsliding in my heart. I am a tattoo enthusiast I am a Christian. I also believe in only way to live, ""Saved by grace" So i won't have to die by the letter. I believe in only one truth, one God, and one way, jst like any other Christian who isn't luke warm. The difference is i use my art as a way to reach out to others. Truly, I am sorry for ur shame u feel over ur self. Remember. Paul also wrote to be careful not to cause ur brother to stumble. So please, in anger do not cause another to stumble. Sadly for u there was a mistake, it seems. But, I, like Paul will use anymethod at hand to spread the love of God. I am also sorry u have not felt the love u deserve even with tattoos. Lastly, words of encouragement. Romans 8:38-39 For I am convincedthat neither death not life, neither angels nor demons, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in ALL CREATION, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Now, Amen to that. Thank you.

Whether a tattoo artist or a tattoo enthusiast, we think of our art as permanent -- an everlasting mark that time may somewhat fade, but never completely remove. Its one of the most permanent alterations we can make in the flesh... but what about the spirit? What about eternal ink? Imagine... eternal ink? An ink so rare, so unique, you would sell all you own to obtain it. But you canÌt buy it. ItÌs not for sale. Yet you can posses it because it is freely given. It was made available nearly 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ was nailed to a cross on Calvary. The innocent blood shed on that cross paid the price for eternal ink -- your name, indelibly written in the palm of GodÌs own hand! A sworn covenant, written in Holy blood. And itÌs free. It has to be free because you can't be good enough to deserve the Master TattooistÌs ink. Nor can you be bad enough to be denied His work. The Artist of the Universe loves you. Just as you are. Right now. His mercy opens the door. His grace invites you in. And His Son already paid your bill. Now God doesn't do cover-ups. He only inks a clean canvas. Yes, He knows you are all marked up with bad ink and bad works that have condemned your spirit and scarred your soul. But through the miracle of rebirth, GodÌs forgiveness will wash away all your sin, all the bad ink of your life. Then perfect love will guide His hand as He recreates the lines and colors of your very being into a righteous living work of art in His image. If you haven't met the Master Tattooist, you can. God does have an appointed time for you, but He doesnÌt take appointments. God takes walk-ins. All walk-ins. HeÌs available right now. No waiting. No excuses. Just open your heart and enter... His eternal ink is real. ItÌs a free gift, but only available through one source... the blood of Jesus. Salvation, your eternal ink, is so simple. God has already done all the work. You need only to ask and receive. But the choice to be inked is yours. Yours alone. His Word says that today is the day of salvation. Today is your day to choose. God said, Today I place before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life. Enter His studio and pray... God, I know I've messed up the canvas of my life. I've marked it up with sin... bad ink and bad choices. I ask for your forgiveness. Jesus, I believe you died for my sins and you live today to deliver me and set me free. Come into my heart and be my Lord and my Savior. Cleanse me, restore me and heal me. Fill me with your Holy Spirit. Feed me with your Word. Teach me to live by faith and empower me to serve. In your name I pray, Jesus... Amen. Welcome to God's forever family! The choice you just made has changed your life! Permanently. Eternally. Your canvas has been washed clean. All things have become new. You have been born again, recreated as a new creature in Christ! Thank Him. Give God praise! Tell someone about what has happened and then get ready... expect God's best. He has some awesome art planned for you! Trust Him. His hand is gentle. His lines are true. His colors are brilliant. And His work is indeed most excellent! Sincerely, your new brother in Christ Jesus, These are not my words but that of Rand from Cherry Creek...read them carefully Godlovesme...I hope they bring you some peace...TAz

Taz, I loved your post, As a Christian (Please don't group me) I have actually asked this question of several Ministers who I respect, and all said that this scripture was taken out of complete context, Marking your body was a metaphore, not the actual act. Anyway I feel for Godlovesme, because he will never find true happiness, or love with his way of thinking, and closed minded ideas. as Taz wrote I too have missed up my canvas of life, alot more serious than a bit of ink on my arm, but my faith allows me to have comfort in knowing I will be resolved of my sins in the end, as Christ gave his life for us for this wonderful gift for those who care to believe. Now please don't think I a zealot, because we all have our own beliefs, but you know they are simular as most have the same message "Be Good To Others" Blacktri

Again...I do NOT take credit for the "eternal Ink" thing...that was Rand at Cherry Creek!!!!...And not necessarily what I believe...I just thought it could possibly make a difference for Godlovesme....TAz

Actually Ducky, what I meant, to clarify, because that didn't come across quite correctly is that I'm talking about the new testament. But that's exactlly how it happened. I kid you not. It was basically a "So what do we wanna put in here?" party. I'm tellin ya guys. Everything that man has touched is foulable. It's the nature of things. We are imperfect. No work written by man, or dictated to man could ever be infoulable. Even if the original source was. Absolutes as they relate to mankind are just silly. Nothing about Mankind is absolute.

This is why I have a sticker that says Jesus, Save me from your followers. I love me some God, be it pagan, hindi, christian, or whatnot... but I don't dig people telling me how to live my life, believe in my faith, or decide what my afterlife will be. My afterlife is for God to decide, not any human. Not to mention, most of the people I've met (most) who have thought they had the ability to judge and decide, are the most under-educated about their faith and religious documents.

Special Red...I agree 100% you said it all!!!

well i dont want to get involved in the whole GOD V.S. SATAN dispute but i just have one simple thing to say about this whole conversation and all aspects of it. IF I AM GOING TO GO TO HELL FOR GETTING,GIVING OR LOVING TATTOOS THEN SO BE IT. AT LEAST I KNOW ILL BE IN HELL WITH ALL OF MY HEROES,FRIENDS,FAMILY. I DONT THINK GOD IS A SHALLOW PERSON AND I DONT THINK THAT TATTOOS = HELL. SO GOD DOESNT LOVE YOU AND YOU ARE AN IDIOT. AND I HOPE THAT YOU GET HIT BY A CAR ON YOUR WAY TO CHURCH TODAY. ILL BE HEADIN TO THE SHOP.